From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Wed Feb 2 23:41:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 5A6FE3818C; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D063818A for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA31081 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:40:42 -0800 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:40:42 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Linus on commercial software Message-ID: <20000202234042.A31056@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk http://wideopen.com/story/455.html Torvalds also made a strong statement about the importance of the Linux community accepting a world where some programs remain proprietary. Answering a question about proprietary applications that ride atop Linux, Torvalds said, "it's not always true that you automatically want to open source something." He said he doesn't want to force open source on anyone, he wants them to turn to open source because they think "it's a good idea." "I'll still pay for software," he declared. "I'll be less eager to pay for software that isn't open source." -Arun PS: He doesn't quite practice what he preaches - he uses GPL :) From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 3 00:00:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 4D1C338192; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7C623818C for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id BAA26794; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:53:06 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Thu Feb 3 01:53:05 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Linus on commercial software References: <20000202234042.A31056@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 03 Feb 2000 01:53:06 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:40:42 -0800" Message-ID: <87snzahgd9.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> "I'll still pay for software," he declared. "I'll be less eager to pay Arun> for software that isn't open source." Arun> PS: He doesn't quite practice what he preaches - he uses GPL :) Amen to that. I just have to say this about the BSD styyle of licence: I had a box on my desk till last month: it ran BSD software. But I had no access to the sources, and I had to wait for months to get action on bug reports, and upgrading the beastie cost several thousand dollars (real money, by any account). So much for the myth of ``free'' BSD software. Thank the lord Linux is GPL'd. manoj -- LOAD "LINUX",8,1 Topic on #LinuxGER Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 3 10:33:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 2865E381E2; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0253F381CC for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:09:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA31951; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:09:04 -0800 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:09:04 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Manoj Srivastava Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Linus on commercial software Message-ID: <20000203090904.A31863@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000202234042.A31056@sharmas.dhs.org> <87snzahgd9.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87snzahgd9.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:53:06AM -0600 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:53:06AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > > I just have to say this about the BSD styyle of licence: I had > a box on my desk till last month: it ran BSD software. But I had no > access to the sources, and I had to wait for months to get action on > bug reports, and upgrading the beastie cost several thousand dollars > (real money, by any account). So much for the myth of ``free'' BSD > software. Now you're coming down to the enforcing of the license. Are you saying that enforcing GPL is easier ? Since you're using a specific example of BSD licensed software to prove that the BSD license is bogus, let me counter by citing a specific example where it works well - FreeBSD. In any case, I use tons of BSD software and not only is the source distribution better organized than some of the GPL'ed software I use, I can afford to update my sources more frequently - even once a day and build everything from scratch. http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/synching.html#CVSUP Bugs ? http://www.freebsd.org/support.html#gnats Now, if the guy who gave you the BSD software didn't want to publish the source, that's his prerogative. He is `free' to do as he wishes. Note that he is no longer using the BSD license if he doesn't give you the source. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Feb 4 14:54:10 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 0194538080; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B09B38071 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03750 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:53:52 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:53:52 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Linux and device compatibility Message-ID: <20000204145352.A3735@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk http://www.pcworld.com/pcwtoday/article/0,1510,15127,00.html From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Feb 6 03:02:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 1A8CD3809B; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE3A53809A for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id EAA24748; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 04:46:58 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Sun Feb 6 04:46:56 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: [LIG] Re: Linus on commercial software References: <20000202234042.A31056@sharmas.dhs.org> <87snzahgd9.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000203090904.A31863@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 06 Feb 2000 04:46:56 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:09:04 -0800" Message-ID: <87og9uvc9r.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 42 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:53:06AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: >> >> I just have to say this about the BSD styyle of licence: I had >> a box on my desk till last month: it ran BSD software. But I had no >> access to the sources, and I had to wait for months to get action on >> bug reports, and upgrading the beastie cost several thousand dollars >> (real money, by any account). So much for the myth of ``free'' BSD >> software. Arun> Now you're coming down to the enforcing of the license. Huh? Where did I talk about enforcement? Arun> Are you saying that enforcing GPL is easier ? Easier than what? Where did enforcement enter into this? Arun> Since you're using a specific example of BSD licensed software Arun> to prove that the BSD license is bogus, let me counter by Arun> citing a specific example where it works well - FreeBSD. You have no idea what I amtalking about, do you? Arun> Now, if the guy who gave you the BSD software didn't want to Arun> publish the source, that's his prerogative. He is `free' to do Arun> as he wishes. Note that he is no longer using the BSD license Arun> if he doesn't give you the source. Interesting sue of the word free. Yup, used to be open source, and is closed now. Couldn't have happened if the GPL were used. Guess why I use the GPL? manoj -- Mathematics is the only science where one never knows what one is talking about nor whether what is said is true. Russell Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 8 20:08:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 2210638174; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:08:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5039238172 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:08:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15153; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:15:07 -0800 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:15:07 -0800 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200002081715.JAA15153@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Cc: bsd-india@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com Subject: [LIG] Fwd: What Linus said about FreeBSD Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma) Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Food for thought. -Arun > Newsgroups: mpc.lists.freebsd.chat,muc.lists.freebsd.chat > Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> > Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 18:16:32 -0700 > From: Brett Glass > Subject: What Linus said about FreeBSD A number of people have stated that Linus disparaged FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Here, for the purpose of discussion, iswhat he actually said. At 41:59 in the video at http://www.technetcast.com/tnc_play.ram?stream_id=207&stream_type=2&play_htt p=1&play_Real5=1, Linux has the following exchange with an audience member who has walked up to the mike to ask a question. Audience member: When I first heard of Linux, I thought it was, well, "This is just another FreeBSD." But obviously, Linux has far overshadowed FreeBSD, and FreeBSD had, like, a lot of really good people working on it. What have you guys learned from FreeBSD? Why have you guys done so much better? Linus: I think that the one thing you should always remember is that it's not just all about technology. Technology is important; what's equally important is -- is just the kind of community you build up around it. And it happened -- probably mostly by mistake, certainly by luck, not by planning -- that the Linux community was just so much more vibrant, so much friendlier, so much more open than the BSD communities used to be. And that, I think, was the deciding factor. It was timing; there was luck; I think what happened was that there was a real need for SOMETHING like Linux. And people didn't necessarily want it to be Linux. They just wanted an alternative. Something that was stable, freely available, and that was good.... And Linux just had all the right attributes at the right time. The BSD projects are certainly ongoing, still, but it's also clear they're still limited to thinking that it's JUST about technology. They don't want to, kind of, build up more of a community and user-friendly issues at all. Thoughts? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Wed Feb 9 03:33:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id BB5B8380B3; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 03:33:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from alabama.innomedia.soft.net (ns.innomedia.soft.net [164.164.79.130]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C5F380A8 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 03:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from hanishkvc (IDENT:hanishkvc@[192.168.1.154]) by alabama.innomedia.soft.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03071 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:22:07 +0530 From: C Hanish Menon Reply-To: hanish@innomedia.soft.net To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LIG] Re: Linus on commercial software Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:22:09 +0530 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <20000202234042.A31056@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000203090904.A31863@sharmas.dhs.org> <87og9uvc9r.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> In-Reply-To: <87og9uvc9r.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00020916251704.00739@hanishkvc> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi Couldn't resist thinking about this point. On Sun, 06 Feb 2000, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > > > Interesting sue of the word free. Yup, used to be open source, > and is closed now. Couldn't have happened if the GPL were used. Guess > why I use the GPL? > > manoj --------- Keep :-) HanishKVC http://HanishKVC.tripod.com/ From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Wed Feb 9 22:21:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 51993380F6; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A18D7380EF for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA21326 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:21:11 -0800 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:21:11 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: [LIG] Re: [LI] Unix & Linux Message-ID: <20000209222111.D21137@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <200002091416.TAA01019@rajesh.com> <38A1BE9B.28DAEB99@netscape.com> <38A21F03.61577730@netscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <38A21F03.61577730@netscape.com>; from Sudhakar Chandrasekharan on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 06:14:27PM -0800 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 06:14:27PM -0800, Sudhakar Chandrasekharan wrote: > > Manoj & Arun, I have a question (please followup in LIG). Can GPL code > contain BSD parts in it? Is it not true to say that the linux kernel is > "mostly distributed under GPL"? Yes, it can. GPL + BSD = GPL, because GPL is more restrictive of the two. RMS would say that because the original BSD license contained the "obnoxious BSD advertising clause" [1], GPL + BSD = GPL + "obnoxious BSD advertising clause" But most recently, this clause has been removed, so GPL is a strict superset of BSD. Yes, the Linux kernel contains "mostly GPL'ed" code. Most notable exceptions are - (a) BSD compression code in PPP, Adaptec aic7xxx driver - derived from the FreeBSD code. (b) PCMCIA code and most drivers are under MPL (Mozilla..) However, the Linux corporate evangelists (ESR, Bruce Perens types) are able to convince serveral corporations that in order to get code into the Linux kernel, it has to be GPL'ed. The most recent instance of this is the IBM JFS code. I exchanged some email with the IBM folks exploring the possibilities of getting the code released under IBM public license or any of the BSDish open source licenses. The main issues are: (a) Since JFS code got mixed with some ext2fs code, it caught the virus and hence needs to be GPL'ed. (b) Any effort to release it under non-GPL'ed licenses will make it less politically acceptable vis-a-vis SGI XFS for example. (c) Releasing, pre-ext2fs contamination code under a different license is under consideration. But the dual license thing suffers from (b). There could be other problems, not acknowledged by IBM publicly: (d) Because FreeBSD and others tend to be "marginal" OSes, they don't matter - i.e. no PR mileage to be gained. (e) Prevent competitors from using IBM JFS in competing products. You probably heard more than you asked for, didn't you ? :) -Arun [1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 10 04:32:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 751F238121; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 04:32:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (ausmtp02.au.ibm.COM [202.135.136.105]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E83838120 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 04:32:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from f03n07e.au.ibm.com by ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (IBM AP 1.0) with ESMTP id XAA31760 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:32:24 +1100 Received: from DemiUrge.in.ibm.com (demiurge.in.ibm.com [9.184.199.132]) by f03n07e.au.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA15958 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:32:21 +1100 Received: by DemiUrge.in.ibm.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C71335885E; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:02:50 +0530 (IST) Delivered-To: sidgeek@demiurge.in.ibm.com Delivered-To: linux-india-real-outgoing@aunet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14498.44149.243769.295179@DemiUrge.in.ibm.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 19.34.1 X-Loop: linux-india@lists.linux-india.org Reply-To: linux-india@lists.linux-india.org X-Url: http://www.linux-india.org From: Syed Khader Vali To: linux-india@lists.linux-india.org Subject: [LIG] [LI] Licensing probs ;-) ( Urgent ) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:47:57 +0530 (IST) Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk hi Folks, ( specifically Arun and Manoj ;-) If I compile an existing proprietary application with GPL'ed tools ( AKA compiler, make and all that ), can I directly use the GPL'ed tools are do I need to buy a license for compiling that. Please understand the question properly !! ;-). ( Hey, this is not my question ! I know the answer is yes you can use it without license, but you know if I make a mistake then I am freshmeat ;-) Thanks Regards Khader -- ------------------------------------------------ @}----------------- Syed Khader Vali (Siddiq) sid@sidcarter.com pub 1024D/3C6A199D sub 2048g/E3A76B00 Key fingerprint = 7F85 2C03 CA1F 5ABD F099 E8D3 392A 9A11 3C6A 199D Debian 2.2.4 (potato) http://www.sidcarter.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- LI is all for free speech, but this list was created for a purpose -- to help popularise Linux in India. If your messages are counterproductive to that purpose, your privileges to submit messages can and will be revoked. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 10 05:15:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 6A2C53811C; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 05:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from exocore.com (unknown [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D6AA3811B for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 05:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06535 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:44:54 +0530 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:44:53 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General Subject: [LIG] Linux is #2 two years ahead of schedule Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk "Linux is moving much more rapidly than we thought," IDC analyst Dan Kusnetzky said. "We had projected it would be No. 2 in 2002 or 2003. It happened in 1999." http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-1546430.html Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 10 09:04:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 603303812F; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 950A53812C for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:04:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA22965; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:04:22 -0800 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:04:22 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Atul Chitnis Cc: Linux India General Subject: Re: [LIG] Linux is #2 two years ahead of schedule Message-ID: <20000210090422.A22949@sharmas.dhs.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Atul Chitnis on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:44:53PM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:44:53PM +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote: > "Linux is moving much more rapidly than we thought," IDC analyst Dan > Kusnetzky said. "We had projected it would be No. 2 in 2002 or 2003. > It happened in 1999." > > http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-1546430.html But Linux sales made $32 million as opposed to $1.7 Billion for NT. At this rate, RHAT and LNUX will be trading at < $10, if they don't show enough money on services. As I said, no one is going to make any money selling Linux. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 10 09:12:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 3DDAF38138; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:12:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from exocore.com (d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8BCE38133 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07490 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:41:11 +0530 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:41:11 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General Subject: Re: [LIG] Linux is #2 two years ahead of schedule In-Reply-To: <20000210090422.A22949@sharmas.dhs.org> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Arun Sharma wrote: > But Linux sales made $32 million as opposed to $1.7 Billion for NT. > At this rate, RHAT and LNUX will be trading at < $10, if they don't > show enough money on services. As I said, no one is going to make > any money selling Linux. Well, no one is *supposed* to be making money selling Linux, so there is really nothing wrong with this picture. A figure of Linux-related service earnings would have been a better indicator of performance. BTW - when I say "*supposed* to", I am not referring to GPL or any other license; I am referring to the fact that the economic model of Linux is built around services, not OS sales. Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 10 22:59:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id CC544380AC; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:59:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAD40380A3 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:59:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA25665 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:59:06 -0800 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:59:06 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: [LIG] BSD license on linux.com Message-ID: <20000210225906.A25660@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk For a change, talks about BSD without bashing GPL. http://www.linux.com/articles.phtml?aid=7125 -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 15 11:13:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 10B77380FB; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from exocore.com (PPP-187-196.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.187.196]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE903808E for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@monster.exocore.com [192.168.1.1]) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13424; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:41:53 +0530 Message-ID: <38A9A545.A7F6C0B0@exocore.com> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:43:09 +0530 From: Atul Chitnis Organization: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: [LIG] What the Linux Community Needs to Grok Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Excellent commentary on the Linux community. To be taken seriously, especially by those "devil-may-care" "Linux-rulez" "death-before-dishonour" "use-the-source-you-moron" "you-are-nothing-until-you-compile-your-own-kernel" etc. kind of people whose attitude puts off most real-world computer users, thereby damaging Linux more than Microsoft ever can. http://www.chc-3.com/pub/linuxgrok.htm From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 15 11:23:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id E5300380FB; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:23:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from exocore.com (PPP-187-196.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.187.196]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05DB3808F for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:23:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@monster.exocore.com [192.168.1.1]) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13424; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:41:53 +0530 Message-ID: <38A9A545.A7F6C0B0@exocore.com> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:43:09 +0530 From: Atul Chitnis Organization: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: [LIG] What the Linux Community Needs to Grok Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Excellent commentary on the Linux community. To be taken seriously, especially by those "devil-may-care" "Linux-rulez" "death-before-dishonour" "use-the-source-you-moron" "you-are-nothing-until-you-compile-your-own-kernel" etc. kind of people whose attitude puts off most real-world computer users, thereby damaging Linux more than Microsoft ever can. http://www.chc-3.com/pub/linuxgrok.htm From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 15 19:54:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 8C6213806A; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:54:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.nse.co.in (unknown [202.54.16.9]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CEE438069 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from surya.nse.co.in (agnibm.nse.co.in [202.54.16.5]) by www.nse.co.in (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA01676 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:27:26 -0500 (GMT) From: asriniva@nse.co.in Received: by surya.nse.co.in(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 65256887.00154C03 ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:22:36 +0530 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NSEIL To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Message-ID: <65256887.00154A7A.00@surya.nse.co.in> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:22:32 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk KEY: D5BE0BF-3EA2BC4 From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Wed Feb 16 22:25:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 4BA7F38141; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6891A3813D for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11291 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:24:59 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:24:59 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: [LIG] Re: [LI] kernel hackers welcome Message-ID: <20000216222459.A11230@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <2962A018DE14D211B8620000F80807F4011CF52A@IE10-VSN.hiso.honeywell.com> <14501.4345.518034.675027@DemiUrge.in.ibm.com> <007f01bf7535$dcbf3c20$3bc0c0c0@ARCHANWINSERVER> <20000212102931.B29283@sharmas.dhs.org> <87g0utk744.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000216090556.A9346@sharmas.dhs.org> <87putwhlxp.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87putwhlxp.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 03:33:38PM -0600 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 03:33:38PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > Arun>>> The real issue is, Indian engineers are driven by money. Not > Arun>>> many people have the time, energy and resources to > Arun>>> contribute. The few who do, go for the big money and are not > Arun>>> exactly Richard Stallman fans > > There are Indian engineers who are not driven by money, and > who do have the time, energy and resources to contribute to free > software -- and if you do want just pure kernel hackers, these are > lsited below. > > I still don't think your rant about Indian developers being > driven by money is true in general, please speak for yourself. I stand by my statement - having worked at/with a number of commercial UNIX vendors and having seen the number of Indian software engineers who work there and comparing it to the number of Indian software engineers who write code for "Stallmanistic" reasons. > N: Asit Mallick > E: asit.k.mallick@intel.com > D: Linux/IA-64 > S: 2200 Mission College Blvd > S: Santa Clara, CA 95052 > S: USA > > N: Goutham Rao > E: goutham.rao@intel.com > D: Linux/IA-64 > S: 2200 Mission College Blvd > S: Santa Clara, CA 95052 > S: USA > Both of them were my colleagues on the IA-64 project and they are essentially in the same boat as me - paid to write software. As for the rest, I consider them an exception, rather than the rule - assuming that for the lack of sufficient info they were not paid to write that code. The intent of my statement is not to discourage people from becoming kernel hackers as you stated, but to point at the reality - that very few kernel hackers exist in India and more can't be created by just forming a list. Also significant is the fact that all these Indian software engineers who know enough to be kernel hackers don't contribute to the Linux kernel because there is no financial incentive to do so. This is why I believe BSD is a better model - it keeps the financial incentive alive. It's written by people who make a living from it, rather than school kids and part time hackers with a daytime job. Another way to look at it is - how much cutting edge technology has GPL produced ? I can't think of even one. Everything is a clone of something or the other. Why ? Because there is no financial incentive to do anything new. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 17 00:38:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 55E9438230; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 00:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5698F38146 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 00:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id CAA17106; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 02:32:43 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Thu Feb 17 02:32:40 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LIG] Re: [LI] kernel hackers welcome References: <2962A018DE14D211B8620000F80807F4011CF52A@IE10-VSN.hiso.honeywell.com> <14501.4345.518034.675027@DemiUrge.in.ibm.com> <007f01bf7535$dcbf3c20$3bc0c0c0@ARCHANWINSERVER> <20000212102931.B29283@sharmas.dhs.org> <87g0utk744.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000216090556.A9346@sharmas.dhs.org> <87putwhlxp.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000216222459.A11230@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 17 Feb 2000 02:32:41 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:24:59 -0800" Message-ID: <87hff8teja.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 76 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 03:33:38PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Arun> The real issue is, Indian engineers are driven by money. Not Arun> many people have the time, energy and resources to Arun> contribute. The few who do, go for the big money and are not Arun> exactly Richard Stallman fans >> >> There are Indian engineers who are not driven by money, and >> who do have the time, energy and resources to contribute to free >> software -- and if you do want just pure kernel hackers, these are >> lsited below. >> >> I still don't think your rant about Indian developers being >> driven by money is true in general, please speak for yourself. Arun> I stand by my statement - having worked at/with a number of commercial Arun> UNIX vendors and having seen the number of Indian software engineers Arun> who work there and comparing it to the number of Indian software engineers Arun> who write code for "Stallmanistic" reasons. Oh, we are down to anecdotal evidence? ANd your number stil may not hold; looking at the total number of programmers in the US, and the number mentioned in the Credits file, I think the ration of Credits file denizens /total number of programmers is likely to be really close. Arun> Both of them were my colleagues on the IA-64 project and they Arun> are essentially in the same boat as me - paid to write Arun> software. As for the rest, I consider them an exception, Arun> rather than the rule - assuming that for the lack of sufficient Arun> info they were not paid to write that code. Arun> Also significant is the fact that all these Indian software engineers Arun> who know enough to be kernel hackers don't contribute to the Linux Arun> kernel because there is no financial incentive to do so. This is getting silly. This helps niether Linux, nor Linux in India, so I'll end this. Fot the record, I object to being tarred in the same brush you paint yourself and your axquantiances in. Picture yourself all you want has money hungry materialistic programmers who would not contribute to free software without being paid for it all you want, but do not have the arrogance to assume that you represent Indians in general. No wonder you like BSD -- you are not intereseted in coding free software, you are driven, by your own admission, by the profit motive. You don't really understand the people behind Linux, and other free software projects -- and thus you disparage us, calling us stalmanists, Given the4 difference between our viewpoints, and the revulsion I feel towards one whio believes that the profit motive is paramount, nay, almost exclusive, I don't think we have much to say that can be fruitful; certainly, our views are far enough apart there is little hope of ever convincing the other. Rather than subject this mailing list to such unpleasantness (I was going to say internecine, but I do nto think that applies anymore), I shall refrain from engaging you in a dialogue any further. Have a nice life. manoj -- "...The Universe is thronged with fire and light, And we but smaller suns, which, skinned, trapped and kept Enshrined in blood and precious bones, hold back the night." Ray Bradbury Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 17 09:53:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 8A5A93827B; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD33138279 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:53:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA13633 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:53:28 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:53:28 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LIG] Re: [LI] kernel hackers welcome Message-ID: <20000217095328.A13606@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <2962A018DE14D211B8620000F80807F4011CF52A@IE10-VSN.hiso.honeywell.com> <14501.4345.518034.675027@DemiUrge.in.ibm.com> <007f01bf7535$dcbf3c20$3bc0c0c0@ARCHANWINSERVER> <20000212102931.B29283@sharmas.dhs.org> <87g0utk744.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000216090556.A9346@sharmas.dhs.org> <87putwhlxp.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000216222459.A11230@sharmas.dhs.org> <87hff8teja.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87hff8teja.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 02:32:41AM -0600 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 02:32:41AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > Given the4 difference between our viewpoints, and the > revulsion I feel towards one whio believes that the profit motive is > paramount, nay, almost exclusive, I don't think we have much to say > that can be fruitful; certainly, our views are far enough apart there > is little hope of ever convincing the other. Agree that our viewpoints are far apart and there is not much to be achieved by continuing the thread. A couple of observations before I end: (a) I don't feel the same "revulsion" about your viewpoint that you feel about mine. (b) I never said profit motive is "paramount". That was your creation. (c) If you find that "profit motive" is causing you revulsion, you're living in the wrong country. For the record, my position is that profit motive and open source are not mutually exclusive and forcing them to be exclusive by tools like GPL is only going to hurt the consumer of open source in the long run. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 17 15:02:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 9C6DA38157; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E71B38156 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA14366 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:02:32 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:02:32 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: [LIG] Intel opensource license Message-ID: <20000217150232.A14352@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk http://developer.intel.com/software/opensource/license.htm Looks like modified BSD to me. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Feb 18 03:05:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 7CB96382B5; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 03:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from exocore.com (d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18F3382A1 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 03:05:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19995 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:34:23 +0530 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:34:23 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General Subject: [LIG] [ilug-blr] LI participates in Bang!inux (fwd) Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk FYI LIG. AC ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:22:16 +0530 From: Jessica Prabhakar Subject: [ilug-blr] LI participates in Bang!inux Linux India announces participation in Bang!inux, 26/27 Feb ----------------------------------------------------------- Linux India will be participating in the exhibition associated with the Bang!inux event, being held on 26/27 February at the IISc in Bangalore. The exhibition area alloted to LI is being given free of cost as a gesture to the Linux community of India by the organisers (Wrox Publishing). The area alloted includes exhibition space (approx 200 sq feet) as well as a 60 seater auditorium for talks about Linux, technical Linux topics, install demos, etc. See http://www.linux-india.org/events/banglinux/ for a floorplan, more details and photos will appear there shortly. Details about the event are at http://www.linux-conference.com LI needs volunteers (about 20) to man the stall area and to demonstrate various aspects of Linux. The format will be similar to that of Bangalore IT.COM, but on a smaller scale. A detailed brief will be given at the ILUG-Bangalore meet on Saturday (19th Feb) at Hotel Ashraya, Infantry Road (Opposite to Police Commissioner's office) at 6:15 pm. The brief will start at 6:30pm SHARP, and the meet will end by 8:30pm. Cover charge for snacks/coffee will be Rs.65 per head as usual. If you are interested in volunteering, please be there. Be there even if you are *not* interested in volunteering - be there with ideas and suggestions. Time permitting, the meet will also have a demonstration of installing Linux with a SiS 6215c card using FrameBuffer Device and the usual Q&A session. Jessica Prabhakar Coordinator, Linux India (Bangalore Chapter) From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Feb 18 23:11:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 8E10F38075; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:10:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (ausmtp02.au.ibm.COM [202.135.136.105]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55AFE38074 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:10:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from f03n05e.au.ibm.com by ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (IBM AP 1.0) with ESMTP id SAA206884; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:10:45 +1100 Received: from DemiUrge.in.ibm.com (demiurge.in.ibm.com [9.184.199.132]) by f03n05e.au.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA33486; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:10:41 +1100 Received: by DemiUrge.in.ibm.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 28F9F5881B; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:41:05 +0530 (IST) From: Syed Khader Vali MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14510.16905.9839.644010@DemiUrge.in.ibm.com> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:41:05 +0530 (IST) To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Cc: Indranil Das Gupta Subject: [LIG] Re: [LI] Fw: Windows 2000 Professional In-Reply-To: <114674062@toto.iv> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 19.34.1 Reply-To: sidgeek@austin.ibm.com Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Indranil" == Indranil Das Gupta writes: Indranil> If the intention was to show up W2K as a sorry OS, I Indranil> fail to see how this helps our cause at all! We Linux Indranil> users have a great thing going. Ridiculing MS or Indranil> over-emphasising MS technologies is acting against Indranil> us. Instead of being percieved as mature users of a Indranil> great OS, based of philosophy embibing a genuine sense Indranil> of ethics, we are leaving /ourselves/ open to ridicule Indranil> by acting like this. Hi there, As you said, this puts us in the same boat as M$ who are trying to spread the FUD. Why do we need to show W2k as a sorry OS ?? Like Atul said, it is going to see it's own ... :-) Concentrating more on the betterment of Linux is what is going to help us and by healthy competition between W2k and Linux. Comments ?? Regards Khader -- ------------------------------------------------ @}----------------- Syed Khader Vali (Siddiq) sid@sidcarter.com pub 1024D/3C6A199D sub 2048g/E3A76B00 Key fingerprint = 7F85 2C03 CA1F 5ABD F099 E8D3 392A 9A11 3C6A 199D Debian 2.2 (frozen) http://www.sidcarter.com From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Sat Feb 19 14:50:28 2000 Received: by www.aunet.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 109E43809B; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:50:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:50:19 -0800 From: Sudhakar Chandrasekharan To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: [Administrative] The Great Renaming Message-ID: <20000219145019.A22110@aunet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i X-Archive-Number: 200002/1 Folks, The Great Renaming that was discussed here earlier is happening. What has happened so far: 1. Four new mailing lists have been created using majordomo2 in the lists.linux-india.org server: linux-india-advocacy, linux-india-general, linux-india-help and linux-india-programmers 2. The subscribers to the old linux-india-general mailing list have been moved to the new linux-india-general mailing list. 3. Subscriptions to all the lists have been opened. Start subscribing to the ones you are interested in. 4. All four mailing lists have digest modes. mj2 deals with digests differently. Digests are not treated as seperate lists. You have to first subscribe to the main mailing list and then set the receiving mode to digests. Roadmap of things that will happen in the near future: 1. The http://lists.linux-india.org/ website is going to be beefed up with more relevant information. 2. In a week's time the LI mailing list will be switched off. A note informing folks about this will be mailed out. After LI is switched off the subscribers to LI and LID will be moved to the LI-help mailing list. 3. Archving of the lists is happening right now. A searchanble web interface needs to get built. List Admin -- "If there were any justice, my face would be on a bunch of crappy merchandise" -- Homer J. Simpson From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Sun Feb 20 22:59:27 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D26F380EC for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA28145 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:59:18 -0800 Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:59:18 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Hacker vs Cracker Message-ID: <20000220225918.A28105@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i X-Archive-Number: 200002/2 Was reading rec.humor.funny and saw a joke which referred to a cracker as hacker. I look up Webster for "hacker" and I see: Main Entry: hack·er Pronunciation: 'ha-k&r Function: noun Date: 14th century 1 : one that hacks 2 : a person who is inexperienced or unskilled at a particular activity 3 : an expert at programming and solving problems with a computer 4 : a person who illegally gains access to and sometimes tampers with information in a computer system I think usage 4 is far too well entrenched in practice for a few "hackers" in the Jargon sense to admonish and correct zillions of people. Perhaps a more practical way out is to entirely give up on the word and use a different word for usage 3 ? -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Sun Feb 20 23:35:10 2000 Received: from exocore.com (unknown [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14CBA380F3 for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25155 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:02:19 +0530 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:02:19 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General Subject: Re: Hacker vs Cracker In-Reply-To: <20000220225918.A28105@sharmas.dhs.org> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200002/3 On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Arun Sharma wrote: > 3 : an expert at programming and solving problems with a computer > 4 : a person who illegally gains access to and sometimes tampers with > information in a computer system > > I think usage 4 is far too well entrenched in practice for a few "hackers" > in the Jargon sense to admonish and correct zillions of people. > > Perhaps a more practical way out is to entirely give up on the word and > use a different word for usage 3 ? I agree. I propose "technos" as a replacement to "hackers". Atul From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 22 16:22:17 2000 Received: from netscape.com (h-205-217-237-47.netscape.com [205.217.237.47]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39B138156 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from judge.mcom.com (judge.mcom.com [205.217.237.53]) by netscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02078 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from netscape.com ([207.1.145.44]) by judge.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.03) with ESMTP id FQCX0R00.D2S for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:22:03 -0800 Message-ID: <38B3282B.C7CCE5EE@netscape.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:22:03 -0800 From: Sudhakar Chandrasekharan Organization: I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, no one can prove a thing X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.13 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: A peek at the distribution scene from 1994... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200002/4 http://www2.linuxjournal.com/lj-issues/issue2/2755.html An article on the "state of distributions" back in '94. What a difference 6 years has made! The only distribution (among the ones that are mentioned in the article) that is surviving in a decent state is Debian. Thaths -- "I have two questions for you: How much? and I'll take it." -- Homer J. Simpson Sudhakar C13n http://people.netscape.com/thaths/ Lead Indentured Slave From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 22 21:23:01 2000 Received: from exocore.com (unknown [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D5A381B7 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA30096 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:52:05 +0530 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:52:05 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General Subject: For those of you who missed it Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200002/5 Have a look at http://lwn.net/daily (it will be available only till tonight). http://lwn.net/daily/#t30 Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 24 09:42:36 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75243808D for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA09239 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:42:26 -0800 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:42:26 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] (long,slightly oft) Richard Stallmans lecture clippings Message-ID: <20000224094226.A9212@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000224090025.D8972@sharmas.dhs.org> <14517.26082.459337.309338@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <14517.26082.459337.309338@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from Raj Mathur on Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 10:39:54PM +0530 X-Archive-Number: 200002/6 On Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 10:39:54PM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: > Hi Arun, > > Refraining from comment on the posting would have been a more credible > way of moving the discussion to LIG. As it stands, you've made > statements which require rebuttal. Which is exactly why the posting was made to linux-india, so that the average newbie won't repeat the mistake. If I'd said let's move it to -general, most people would've just ignored it and the next guy who reads gnu.org or a RMS lecture, would've done the same thing. The point of the posting was not to say RMS was right or wrong. The point was to say that differing points of view _exist_. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 24 14:18:13 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90EE38096 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:18:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id QAA11112; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:16:39 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Thu Feb 24 16:16:34 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Hacker vs Cracker References: <20000220225918.A28105@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 24 Feb 2000 16:16:34 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:59:18 -0800" Message-ID: <87hfeyz1od.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/7 >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> I think usage 4 is far too well entrenched in practice for a Arun> few "hackers" in the Jargon sense to admonish and correct Arun> zillions of people. Oh, I don't know. I was reading a news story o CNN lately, and the scrupulously used the correct term. I think we are finally making a difference. Secondly, this is not a general public we address in the mailing lists. These are computer literate people, and they should be aware of the meaning of the words on the context of computer useage. Arun> Perhaps a more practical way out is to entirely give up on the word and Arun> use a different word for usage 3 ? That has even less chance of succes, IMHO. manoj -- To Perl, or not to Perl, that is the kvetching. Larry Wall in <199801200310.TAA11670@wall.org> Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 24 14:28:14 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED2B38096 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id QAA11171; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:19:30 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Thu Feb 24 16:19:30 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: [LI] (long,slightly oft) Richard Stallmans lecture clippings References: <20000224090025.D8972@sharmas.dhs.org> <14517.26082.459337.309338@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <20000224094226.A9212@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 24 Feb 2000 16:19:30 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:42:26 -0800" Message-ID: <87d7pmz1jh.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/8 >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> The point of the posting was not to say RMS was right or Arun> wrong. The point was to say that differing points of view Arun> _exist_. That is belabouring the obvious. We _know_ different points of views exist -- in fact, the proprietary toned views you espouse are genrally mainstream. But every post does not have to reflect every single view point, from closed source to open source, and very shade in between. Frankly, it seemed unnecesarily confrontational. manoj -- When one woman was asked how long she had been going to symphony concerts, she paused to calculate and replied, "Forty-seven years -- and I find I mind it less and less." Louise Andrews Kent Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 24 16:31:41 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5A638081 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09889 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:31:31 -0800 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:31:31 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] (long,slightly oft) Richard Stallmans lecture clippings Message-ID: <20000224163131.B9842@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000224090025.D8972@sharmas.dhs.org> <874sayz0ej.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <874sayz0ej.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 04:44:04PM -0600 X-Archive-Number: 200002/9 On Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 04:44:04PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > However, since you don't yourself quite get the free software > movement (by your own admission), I have no problem understanding > your disquite with open software principles. I never admitted that I don't "get" the free software movement. I don't have any dispute with open software principles/definitions either. > > Arun> Lately, his statements and actions have deeply divided the open source > Arun> community into > > Lately? Richard has said the same thisng, ever since he > invented teh free software movement. True. But the division is a more recent thing. I'd characterize the FSF as a "fringe" movement (in terms of numbers) and only in the last few years has it become more mainstream. And the particular division that I'm talking about is after he started the GNU/Linux thing. > Arun> (a) People who just believe that open source is a good _methodology_ with > Arun> no political overtones. > Arun> (b) People who emphasize "freedom" over everything else - i.e. Richard > Arun> Stallman (RMS for short). > > Rubish. Some of us are into it for other reasons than money > (which you have a problem with, but that's all right). I don't have a problem with what you're in it for. I have a problem with your/RMS's ideology on what I should be doing for a living - specifically forbidding the selling of closed source software. > Arun> His use of the word "freedom" also has been controversial - as > > Not really. Most people who are not out to make money have > understood why fee software is called that. No they don't. Ask your Mom what the "free" in free software means. And she'll tell you - it's free as in beer. > > Arun> in I don't have the "freedom" to access your bank account. Note > Arun> that RMS also advocates having no passwords - so that machines > Arun> can be accessed "freely". Some people see his philosophy as > Arun> being communist. > > Communism, as in what karl Marx said, was a great system -- > unfortunately, unlike freeee software, the implementation never came > close to the ideal If that is an admission that RMS philosophy has communist ideals, then I congratulate you for having done that. I believe that communism has good points and open source software has good points too. But forcing that on everyone for everything is what I disagree with. > > Arun> So the message to the next Linux fan/advocate who bumps into > Arun> the GNU web page or a RMS lecture - yes, the messages are > Arun> powerful, they make sense when seen from some angles. > > The view of free software proponets. Yes. Specifically, the view of people who want *all* software to be free. > > Arun> But they are also seen as being very controversial and hotly > Arun> debated and inappropriate for a large volume tech help mailing > Arun> list like this one. > > Yes, from people who want to milk money out of every bit of > code they right (did you not admit you only contribute to fe3e > software because you are paid to do it?). Now that's getting personal and you're guessing. I just said I got paid for my work. I did not say "because". Not all software that I write is paid for. The best software that I've written was paid for. I see free software as a donation - an act of philonthropy. Not an end in itself. > I can see why the GPL is disturbing to you. I'm not "disturbed" by GPL. Perhaps it was appropriate for RMS when people were making money off of his source code - emacs and he wanted to prevent that. I just don't think that is in the interests of the end users of free software because they get less choice by not being able to choose between commercial and free software. It is also not in the interests of the developers - because a free software based economy can employ fewer programmers than a hybrid economy containing both commercial and free software. And I don't think the ideal world that FSF envisions is going to happen. They'll have to shutdown all book publishers, music companies, movie companies and currency printing facilities first. These are all restricting your freedom to read books, listen to music, see movies and buy what one likes. And I'm getting a little tired of correcting all the things that you're accusing me of in this thread. Bored, -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 24 16:45:11 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA783809B for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:44:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09935 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:44:11 -0800 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:44:11 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Hacker vs Cracker Message-ID: <20000224164411.A9898@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000220225918.A28105@sharmas.dhs.org> <87hfeyz1od.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87hfeyz1od.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 04:16:34PM -0600 X-Archive-Number: 200002/10 On Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 04:16:34PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: > > Arun> I think usage 4 is far too well entrenched in practice for a > Arun> few "hackers" in the Jargon sense to admonish and correct > Arun> zillions of people. > > Oh, I don't know. I was reading a news story o CNN lately, and > the scrupulously used the correct term. I think we are finally making > a difference. http://search.cnn.com/query.html?sites=CNN&qc=&col=cnni&qm=0&st=1&nh=10&lk=1&rf=1&look=&key=&venue=all&keyword=&comefrom=izcb-search&isp=zcb&qt=hacker 7611 hits. > Arun> Perhaps a more practical way out is to entirely give up on the word and > Arun> use a different word for usage 3 ? > > That has even less chance of succes, IMHO. Define success. My definition of success is a clear distinction between a clever programmer and a malicious one. Use "Guru" (or whatever) for the former and "Hacker" for the latter and success is achieved. The problem here is more of people wanting to be called "hacker" while avoiding the wrong meaning. On second thoughts, I think giving up "hacker" would be like giving up one's own culture (like MTV is doing in India) and I don't like that. But I don't think it's easy to get the "mainstream" to change either. Essentially, I see a problem, but I don't have a solution. (I retract my earlier suggestion). -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 24 17:03:18 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 919F53809B for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA09976 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:03:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:03:09 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: [LI] (long,slightly oft) Richard Stallmans lecture clippings Message-ID: <20000224170309.B9898@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000224090025.D8972@sharmas.dhs.org> <14517.26082.459337.309338@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <20000224094226.A9212@sharmas.dhs.org> <87d7pmz1jh.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87d7pmz1jh.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 04:19:30PM -0600 X-Archive-Number: 200002/11 On Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 04:19:30PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: > > Arun> The point of the posting was not to say RMS was right or > Arun> wrong. The point was to say that differing points of view > Arun> _exist_. > > That is belabouring the obvious. We _know_ different points of > views exist -- in fact, the proprietary toned views you espouse are > genrally mainstream. The posting was not meant for you or the regulars on the list. We all know the issues. It wasn't obvious to the poster - which is why he made the posting. > Frankly, it seemed unnecesarily confrontational. Agree. Given my views, I'm less qualified to make that PAP (pseudo admin post) :-) Thaths, you're probably more qualified to do this from next time on. How about setting a filter on RMS and GPL on the same post ? :-) -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 24 20:28:20 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 315B338053 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:28:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id WAA25024; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:27:50 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Thu Feb 24 22:27:49 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Hacker vs Cracker References: <20000220225918.A28105@sharmas.dhs.org> <87hfeyz1od.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000224164411.A9898@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 24 Feb 2000 22:27:49 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:44:11 -0800" Message-ID: <87vh3dykhm.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 57 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/12 >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> Perhaps a more practical way out is to entirely give up on the word and Arun> use a different word for usage 3 ? >> >> That has even less chance of succes, IMHO. Arun> Define success. probability of adoption of a new term for a Hacker, Sorry, we are already a group of misfits, rebels, and, in the US, a bunch of social outcasts. We are not going to give up our defining term -- certainly not for some clueless idiots out there l-) ;-) Arun> My definition of success is a clear distinction between a clever Arun> programmer and a malicious one. But these are not necesarily distince. A malicious programmer can be very clever, (The Worm was quite clever) See why I think you have little chance of success? Arun> Use "Guru" (or whatever) for the former and "Hacker" for the latter Arun> and success is achieved. You may get a limited splinter group to get to follow you -- but this is not a grass roots movement, by a long shot (after a quick poll on IRC). We *like* having a simple litmus test to tell us who needs a clue bat. Arun> The problem here is more of people wanting to be called "hacker" Arun> while avoiding the wrong meaning. Wanting? Arun> On second thoughts, I think giving up "hacker" would be like Arun> giving up one's own culture (like MTV is doing in India) and I Arun> don't like that. But I don't think it's easy to get the Arun> "mainstream" to change either. Do we really need them to? I coul;dn't care less. The mainstream know nothing about most terms technical (almost all of which have totally different layman meaning anyway). Arun> Essentially, I see a problem, but I don't have a solution. (I Arun> retract my earlier suggestion). So now we agree. manoj -- What a misfortune to be a woman! And yet, the worst misfortune is not to understand what a misfortune it is. Kierkegaard, 1813-1855. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 24 20:28:24 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 145E3380A1 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id WAA24748; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:21:09 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Thu Feb 24 22:21:07 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: [LI] (long,slightly oft) Richard Stallmans lecture clippings References: <20000224090025.D8972@sharmas.dhs.org> <874sayz0ej.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000224163131.B9842@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 24 Feb 2000 22:21:08 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:31:31 -0800" Message-ID: <87zospyksr.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 223 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/13 >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> I never admitted that I don't "get" the free software Arun> movement. I don't have any dispute with open software Arun> principles/definitions either. I beg pardon. I was extrapolating. However, you did admit to not being persuaded enough by the movement to consider contributions to the code base that you were not paid for, or that is the impression that I got. Arun> True. But the division is a more recent thing. I'd characterize Arun> the FSF as a "fringe" movement (in terms of numbers) and only Arun> in the last few years has it become more mainstream. And the Arun> particular division that I'm talking about is after he started Arun> the GNU/Linux thing. Actually, a lot of us Linux folks have a great deal of respect for RMS (though I agree he ruffled our feathers with his characteristic lack of tact). And I think I find at the LWE and other Linux meetings that people are indeed not opposed to the GNU/Linux thang; they just were upset initially at the way it was asked. Given the penetration of GNU tolls (gcc, emacs, shell and files utils), I would not characterize GNU or the FSF as fringe, really. Arun> I don't have a problem with what you're in it for. I have a Arun> problem with your/RMS's ideology on what I should be doing for Arun> a living - specifically forbidding the selling of closed source Arun> software. I think you are mistake about our ideology. I have no problem with you, or microsoft, or anyone writing proprietary software -- even RMS, who considers it agasinst his ethos, does not impose it on others. I do believe you are not the target audience I spend all my effort on. I am wworking towards a community of people, and you have choosen not to be a part. You certainly have the right, and I, and others like me, would not bother you if you just leave our beliefs alone. I do find that your characterization of my belief sets belittles it -- I am part of an experiment in building a community, a new way of coming together, and the rewards are certainly not monetary. I am not being altruistic -- I am not putting the code forth for all to use in pure altruism. I am building a code base, along with the community -- and you often rise against that. I have rarely come out against the proponents of the BSD licence (belienve me, I have opinions about the likes of Theo), but you have, often, called us deluded or brain washed. If you would allow the plausibility of others having a belief set different from your, and concede that those ethos can be valid, without delusion, or being brainwashed, we can get along. Arun> If that is an admission that RMS philosophy has communist Arun> ideals, then I congratulate you for having done that. I Arun> believe that communism has good points and open source software Arun> has good points too. Actually, I believe that the free software movement has too much eliticism to actually be to much like communism; and the similarity is mostly in the dismissal of the profit motive. Unlike communism, it is not pure egalitarianism: the rewards, what they are, of the free software movement are definitely not equally distributed. The rewards just happen not to be materialistic. Arun> But forcing that on everyone for everything is what I disagree Arun> with. I disagree about the coercion involved. When person X writes software, and puts it under the GPL, there is no arm twisting involved for anyone to base their own software on the code. When pereson Y writes code, and puts it under the BSD licence, they have no interest in what is done with it, as long as it is used, and their name is on it. In the former case, the licence is such that code can't be taken away, improved upon, and be locked away from the community: There is no such protection in the latter case. The former case causes an synergistic exchange of ideas and code, that is often impossible for a lone developer or organization. If ones goal is to create a community around a code base, and to improve and increase the code base, the GPL is protection. Sure, it can be done without the GPL -- but all efforts in the past failed to get the critical mass, since it is so easy for code to escape, and copntribution back to the community not be made. Arun> Yes. Specifically, the view of people who want *all* software to be Arun> free. True enough. I _would_ want all software to be free -- I am pragmatic enough ot to demand it. >> Yes, from people who want to milk money out of every bit of >> code they right (did you not admit you only contribute to fe3e >> software because you are paid to do it?). Arun> Now that's getting personal and you're guessing. I do apologize. Arun> I just said I got paid for my work. I did not say Arun> "because". Not all software that I write is paid for. The best Arun> software that I've written was paid for. I see free software as Arun> a donation - an act of philonthropy. Not an end in itself. I stand corrected. You just dsaid that your kernel contribution was paid for, and some other contributors were in the same boat -- they wrote for the kernel because it was their job to do so. I have, in the past, written code for companies where the deadline pressure, and the tyrrany of the time to market mitigated against a release that was as polished as it should have been On the other hand, my free code is a labour of love; and it carries my reputation with it. Code that I write for free software is amongst the best that I have written -- since it can be, and the only one I am answering to is my honour. >> I can see why the GPL is disturbing to you. Arun> I'm not "disturbed" by GPL. Perhaps it was appropriate for RMS Arun> when people were making money off of his source code - emacs Arun> and he wanted to prevent that. Actually, preventing making money was not an issue -- not contributing improvements was. You can still sell GPL'd software for however much the market can bear. Arun> I just don't think that is in the interests of the end users of Arun> free software because they get less choice by not being able to Arun> choose between commercial and free software. They can choose to pay whatever they want. I think where we differ is that I think that open source code actually tends to create better quality software than otherwise (I have seen the source code that companies produce when marketing -- and not peer review -- drives. *Shudder*) Arun> It is also not in the interests of the developers - because Arun> a free software based economy can employ fewer programmers than Arun> a hybrid economy containing both commercial and free software. I think we have nothing to worry about there, as yet. And even if all code were free, the only loss of employment is in the constant reinventing of the wheel -- companies would still pay to get custom software built cheaply on free code (I am getting paid doing just that). The model shall change, but the volume may not. And the increase efficiency, and the boost in code quality and volume would make up for the less labour spent reinventing what someone else already has done. I think we are on the brink of an explosion of software -- and closed source software is a hindrance to that explosion Arun> And I don't think the ideal world that FSF envisions is going Arun> to happen. They'll have to shutdown all book publishers, music Arun> companies, movie companies and currency printing facilities Arun> first. These are all restricting your freedom to read books, Arun> listen to music, see movies and buy what one likes. There is a difference when you talk about books and other items that takes energy and investment to dupplicate. However, there is other fallacy in this view: people say the same thing whenever a new model or methodolgy comes forth. Back in the beginning of this century, people complained abot the horseless carriages and how that was going to be the death of London. You see, a hansom cab had three or four shifts, and that meant 3 or four horses, and drivers, and the stabling for the horses, and the hay, and the cleanup cew that kept the streets clean. All of this was threatened by the horseless carriage, and by gar! the horseless cab! And then there was the hysteria about automation leaving masses of people unemployed in the US.Have you looked at unemployment recently? Lowest in decades, just when we are at our most automated. Yes, small grocery stores, mom and pop stores, any brick and mortar business that does not expand on the web, stock brokers, travel agents -- all these face serious challenges, and must adapt, or loose theur jobs. Possibly, software producers shall have to adapt. No more recreating the same thing over and over again. No more "Not invented here". Fewer, more competent software engineers, who write code for the vast new market there is. No longer do we have to hoard code in order to make a living. We can have free code, more interesting work, less sweatshops -- and a community. We, if I amy say so, Have A Dream. And if you do not dream, is not huality losing? Arun> And I'm getting a little tired of correcting all the things that you're Arun> accusing me of in this thread. And I am tired of correcting the the mould you impose on all people who are pro-free software. In my defence, I am only wonnging an individual: you are caricaturizing a whole class of people. manoj -- Real Users find the one combination of bizarre input values that shuts down the system for days. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Thu Feb 24 23:24:22 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D43638087 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA11064 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:24:13 -0800 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:24:13 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: [LI] (long,slightly oft) Richard Stallmans lecture clippings Message-ID: <20000224232413.A10826@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000224090025.D8972@sharmas.dhs.org> <874sayz0ej.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000224163131.B9842@sharmas.dhs.org> <87zospyksr.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87zospyksr.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 10:21:08PM -0600 X-Archive-Number: 200002/14 On Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 10:21:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > I do find that your characterization of my belief sets > belittles it I try not to - but I end up being harsh at times. To err is human.. > > I disagree about the coercion involved. When person X writes > software, and puts it under the GPL, there is no arm twisting > involved for anyone to base their own software on the code. > I'd say it's passive coercion. It's tempting - it works well and it's free. But once you get into it - you're consumed by it. It's all or nothing. > When pereson Y writes code, and puts it under the BSD licence, > they have no interest in what is done with it, as long as it > is used, and their name is on it. The intention is that more good code gets written as a result - both commercial and free. Sometimes commercial software makes it into the free alternative, typically when the market window is closed i.e. the company doesn't stand to make any more money and wants to cash in on the good will generated. That said, the examples of companies having gained from BSD is more than examples of companies that have given back. But that's not a surprise. But since free software is a great technical solution to some of the software problems, it can provide a spring board for many new startups that can bring innovations to end users faster. > I have, in the past, written code for companies where the > deadline pressure, and the tyrrany of the time to market mitigated > against a release that was as polished as it should have been Agree. Those are all pitfalls of commercial software. > Arun> I just don't think that is in the interests of the end users of > Arun> free software because they get less choice by not being able to > Arun> choose between commercial and free software. > > They can choose to pay whatever they want. > > I think where we differ is that I think that open source code > actually tends to create better quality software than otherwise (I > have seen the source code that companies produce when marketing -- > and not peer review -- drives. *Shudder*) There is truth in what you say. But there are also classes of software where commercial software is better today and free software hasn't proven itself. My ideal world would have a free version of WinUNIX (Yeah, there is a hidden message in the name :-), which is great for hacking around for educational and research purposes, as well as custom software solutions. It would also keep the commercial vendor Moon Microsystems, the vendor of highly scalable BigUNIX operating system honest, both in overcharging for software and pursuing ultra proprietary paths. At the same time, the leading purveyor of office software, NanoSoft sells a easy to install and use EasyUNIX along with its market leading office 2010, which also runs on WinUNIX - a popular operating system among developers because of its high customizability. > > Arun> It is also not in the interests of the developers - because > Arun> a free software based economy can employ fewer programmers than > Arun> a hybrid economy containing both commercial and free software. > > I think we have nothing to worry about there, as yet. And even > if all code were free, the only loss of employment is in the constant > reinventing of the wheel -- companies would still pay to get custom > software built cheaply on free code (I am getting paid doing just > that). The model shall change, but the volume may not. That's an interesting argument. I'll come back to that when I find enough time. > Arun> And I don't think the ideal world that FSF envisions is going > Arun> to happen. They'll have to shutdown all book publishers, music > Arun> companies, movie companies and currency printing facilities > Arun> first. These are all restricting your freedom to read books, > Arun> listen to music, see movies and buy what one likes. > > There is a difference when you talk about books and other > items that takes energy and investment to dupplicate. I'd argue that books (e-books, photocopied books for example), music, movies and software fall in the same category - low cost of replication but medium/high cost of production and use by a large number of people. [...] > We can have free code, more interesting work, less sweatshops > -- and a community. Those are noble goals and I'd be all for GPL if those goals can be achieved. However, if they can't be, GPL would be hinderance to progress, because of its exclusive nature. In addition to all the good things you list above, a developer has to worry about sustenance in a capitalist world we live in. Though plenty of resources (software) is availble in the world, they may not reach the consumers because of articificial barriers. To quote Amartya Sen, famines are rarely the result of shortage of food. It's due to a vicious cycle of financial losses and resulting in fiscal conservatism, resulting in further losses. So though there is a lot of food present, people are unable to get to the food - because they don't have the money to buy. So money here is an artificial barrier. Under a communist system, such an artificial shortage/famine can't happen. Available resources are equally shared among everyone. Similarly, money has created artificial barriers among software developers, that prevent code sharing. Free software solves some of those problems. I respect Stallman's pioneering work for that. But the transition from one system to the other is not easy. And each system has its merits. One has to just find the right balance. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Fri Feb 25 00:18:10 2000 Received: from rri.res.in (equus.rri.res.in [202.54.37.67]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4F938091 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 00:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ias.ernet.in (prakash@ias.ernet.in [202.41.122.11]) by rri.res.in (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA08361 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:45:58 +0530 (IST) Received: (from prakash@localhost) by ias.ernet.in (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA14049; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:00:29 +0500 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:00:29 +0500 (GMT+0500) From: "N.A. Prakash" To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: [LI] (long,slightly oft) Richard Stallmans lecture , clippings In-Reply-To: <20000224232413.A10826@sharmas.dhs.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200002/15 On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Arun Sharma wrote: > > But the transition from one system to the other is not easy. And each > system has its merits. One has to just find the right balance. > I went to that talk too, and you know, RMS was talking about precisely this, but from the opposite side I think. He said the open source movement was trying to promote use of open source software for reasons of convenience of doing a certain task, practicality and so on, but in doing so was allowing use of nonfree software in some distributions and thus losing sight of the ideal of the free software movement - the end was supreme, not the means, according to him. So he seemed to be saying that the balance, if that's what the 'open source followers' (I'm still confused about the distinction RMS made between open source movement and free software movement) were trying to achieve, was taking us away from the true goal of free software. He even saw this as a threat to the free software movement. RMS never used the word 'balance' by the way. On the other hand, perhaps one can say that RMS seems willing to sacrifice the spread of GNU/Linux for the sake of the true goal? Maybe my conjecture is not justified. Comments? prakash N. A. Prakash From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Fri Feb 25 08:23:19 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F119380B8 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA11973 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:23:07 -0800 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:23:07 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] (long,slightly oft) Richard Stallmans lecture clippings Message-ID: <20000225082307.A11907@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <38B5FBF4.A264323A@vsnl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <38B5FBF4.A264323A@vsnl.com>; from Raghavendra Bhat on Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 03:50:12AM +0000 X-Archive-Number: 200002/16 On Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 03:50:12AM +0000, Raghavendra Bhat wrote: > After the talk, I went up and touched Prof: Stallman. He abruptly > turned back and said, "You should also touch and use GNU software, > Have you ?" I was taken aback by the understanding of this great > man who has sacrificed many things for the sake of the GNU. And the moral of the story is ? Why is it relevant to the greatness of Prof Stallman ? -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Sun Feb 27 13:31:51 2000 Received: from raq1.indusnetworks.com (ftp.siripurapu.com [216.18.17.150]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F010380A6; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 13:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nk ([203.197.77.249]) by raq1.indusnetworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24228; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 13:31:36 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000228025631.00d24100@pop.netaddress.com> X-Sender: nirmalkej@pop.netaddress.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 03:02:58 +0530 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org, linux-india@lists.linux-india.org From: Nirmal Kejriwal Subject: [Commercial] Web master wanted Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200002/17 Hello, ______________________________________________________________ We need a WEB MASTER, to be based in Bombay, to manage our various exiting and forthcoming Websites. The candidate should be adept in handling HTML, should be comfortable working on LINUX platform along with MS WINDOWS and should be willing to learn new things. Work responsibilities include maintaining the sites, handling regular e-correspondence coming through the site and content creation if need be. ______________________________________________________________ Please contact me via email or directly. Regards Nirmal #+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+# ICQ # 20161432 Ph: 91 98201 83859 #+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+# From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Mon Feb 28 08:28:34 2000 Received: from deliverator.sgi.com (deliverator.sgi.com [204.94.214.10]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26EA938125 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (fddi-nodin.corp.sgi.com [198.29.75.193]) by deliverator.sgi.com (980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id IAA29456 for <@external-mail-relay.sgi.com:linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org>; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:23:50 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id IAA67102 for <@relay.sgi.com:linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org>; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id VAA22161 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:57:59 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA11388; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:58:10 +0530 (IST) From: Raj Mathur Message-ID: <14522.41498.5263.189068@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:58:10 +0530 (IST) To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200002/18 An interesting one for those who equate Free Software (a la RMS) with Communism. The author states (and quite convincingly) that the proprietary software model is closer to the Russian state under Stalin. C'mon, Arun and Manoj, let's hear your views ;-) Regards, -- Raju http://linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-02/lw-02-devnul_2.html From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Mon Feb 28 09:03:48 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF09380F3 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23102 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:03:39 -0800 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:03:39 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000228090339.A23006@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <14522.41498.5263.189068@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <14522.41498.5263.189068@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from Raj Mathur on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:58:10PM +0530 X-Archive-Number: 200002/19 On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:58:10PM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: > An interesting one for those who equate Free Software (a la RMS) with > Communism. The author states (and quite convincingly) that the > proprietary software model is closer to the Russian state under > Stalin. I'm far from convinced. The problem with this article (and many others) is that they treat communism as a bad word. That's just a tribute to the capabilities of American media propaganda. Secondly, at no stage does the author define communism or its central ideas. He just compares some attributes of communism - centralized planning - in this case, to compare with proprietary software. Even a democracy like India has centralized planning. The paragraph about intellectual property is ridiculous. There can be no IP in a communist country - also the belief of the Stallman school. I also find "freedom" = capitalism, communism = authoritarianism, equation a bit naive. I still maintain that Stallman has abused the word "freedom", but in really consistent ways :-) Webster's defines "communism" to be: 1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed And Stallman's ideology - that all software should be free and there is should be no proprietary software - by definition, software that is someone's property, matches the above definition of communism very well. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Mon Feb 28 09:22:05 2000 Received: from pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (pneumatic-tube.sgi.com [204.94.214.22]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4902D38123 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (fddi-nodin.corp.sgi.com [198.29.75.193]) by pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id JAA07733; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:24:55 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id JAA45594; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id WAA31680; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:51:23 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11913; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:51:33 +0530 (IST) From: Raj Mathur Message-ID: <14522.44701.344492.795134@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:51:33 +0530 (IST) To: Arun Sharma Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin In-Reply-To: <20000228090339.A23006@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <14522.41498.5263.189068@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <20000228090339.A23006@sharmas.dhs.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200002/20 Hi advocacy-type D00dz, Ah well, once again having to explain the difference between goods and software... this time I'll try to use words of one syllable :-) Goods: a thing you can touch. Software: a thing you can not touch. Goods: if I give you mine, I have less. Software: if I give you mine, we both have. Communism: share wealth so that each has equal. Free software (RMS style): share wealth to increase it without reducing anyone else's share. Ah well, I'm sure Arun will insist on failing to see the essential difference between an ice cream and a piece of code, and I shall be treading this ground again pretty soon :-) It really depends on your view of life: do you consider yourself to live in abundance, or do you consider yourself stricken by poverty? If the latter, then it makes sense to grab every penny out of every ++ that you can put into a file and name it ``.c''. If the former you can think beyond yourself and try to see the big picture. Taking a leaf out of many books, I'm out of this discussion now. Thank you for listening ;-) Regards, -- Raju >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:58:10PM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: >> An interesting one for those who equate Free Software (a la >> RMS) with Communism. The author states (and quite >> convincingly) that the proprietary software model is closer to >> the Russian state under Stalin. Arun> I'm far from convinced. The problem with this article (and Arun> many others) is that they treat communism as a bad Arun> word. That's just a tribute to the capabilities of American Arun> media propaganda. Arun> Secondly, at no stage does the author define communism or Arun> its central ideas. He just compares some attributes of Arun> communism - centralized planning - in this case, to compare Arun> with proprietary software. Even a democracy like India has Arun> centralized planning. Arun> The paragraph about intellectual property is Arun> ridiculous. There can be no IP in a communist country - also Arun> the belief of the Stallman school. Arun> I also find "freedom" = capitalism, communism = Arun> authoritarianism, equation a bit naive. Arun> I still maintain that Stallman has abused the word Arun> "freedom", but in really consistent ways :-) Arun> Webster's defines "communism" to be: Arun> 1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b Arun> : a system in which goods are owned in common and are Arun> available to all as needed Arun> And Stallman's ideology - that all software should be free Arun> and there is should be no proprietary software - by Arun> definition, software that is someone's property, matches the Arun> above definition of communism very well. Arun> -Arun Arun> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Arun> The LIG mailing list archives are available at: Arun> http://lists.linux-india.org/cgi-bin/wilma/linux-india-general From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Mon Feb 28 10:06:14 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E4D38104 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA23220 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:06:06 -0800 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:06:06 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000228100605.A23195@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <14522.41498.5263.189068@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <20000228090339.A23006@sharmas.dhs.org> <14522.44701.344492.795134@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <14522.44701.344492.795134@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from Raj Mathur on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 10:51:33PM +0530 X-Archive-Number: 200002/21 On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 10:51:33PM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: > Hi advocacy-type D00dz, > > Ah well, once again having to explain the difference between goods and > software... this time I'll try to use words of one syllable :-) > > Goods: a thing you can touch. > Software: a thing you can not touch. > > Goods: if I give you mine, I have less. > Software: if I give you mine, we both have. I understand the distinction that you're trying to make. But I simply don't accept that distinction. We live in an economy where the two are mixed. I can sing a song, write a book and buy a car. What is your defense ? > Communism: share wealth so that each has equal. And wealth includes both the types that your describe above. > Free software (RMS style): share wealth to increase it without > reducing anyone else's share. Not true. You've reduced the share of people who rely only things of the first type. You're just arguing that if I'm a singer, I should just give up my profession and start working on things that people can touch ? > Ah well, I'm sure Arun will insist on failing to see the essential > difference between an ice cream and a piece of code, and I shall be > treading this ground again pretty soon :-) As long as I can give someone a piece of code and get an ice cream, yes. > > It really depends on your view of life: do you consider > yourself to live in abundance, or do you consider yourself stricken by > poverty? If the latter, then it makes sense to grab every penny out > of every ++ that you can put into a file and name it ``.c''. If the > former you can think beyond yourself and try to see the big picture. > It's not about greed - as you've pointed out. It's about choice. I can and still do - donate money/code as I wish. Not because someone forces me to. Let me stress again that I'm not opposed to all of Stallman's principles. I'm just opposed to his exclusivity. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Mon Feb 28 18:43:11 2000 Received: from brahma.webginn.com (unknown [203.197.39.2]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4D638119 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 18:42:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from outsider ([203.197.39.52]) by brahma.webginn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27109 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:20:33 +0530 Message-ID: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> Reply-To: "SANIsoft" From: "SANIsoft" To: Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:12:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-Archive-Number: 200002/22 Hello Folks, Throwing a radical spanner in to the discussion Free Software is the protest from the thinkers who are "on strike" I/We just refuse to sell software to people who will further exploit me (and not give credit :-) So for me free software comes closer to objectivism than anything else I have a whole lot more on that - BUT - then it is a personal opinion and few people would give a damn about objectivism Cheers Tarique ======================================= Creating not just Web Sites but Web Applications http://www.sanisoft-india.com Search Engine for Nagpur http://nagpurcity.net ======================================= -----Original Message----- From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [LIG] Free software, proprietary software and Stalin >On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 10:51:33PM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: >> Hi advocacy-type D00dz, >> >> Ah well, once again having to explain the difference between goods and >> software... this time I'll try to use words of one syllable :-) >> >> Goods: a thing you can touch. >> Software: a thing you can not touch. >> >> Goods: if I give you mine, I have less. >> Software: if I give you mine, we both have. > >I understand the distinction that you're trying to make. But I simply >don't accept that distinction. We live in an economy where the two >are mixed. > >I can sing a song, write a book and buy a car. What is your defense ? > >> Communism: share wealth so that each has equal. > >And wealth includes both the types that your describe above. > >> Free software (RMS style): share wealth to increase it without >> reducing anyone else's share. > >Not true. You've reduced the share of people who rely only things >of the first type. You're just arguing that if I'm a singer, I should >just give up my profession and start working on things that people >can touch ? > >> Ah well, I'm sure Arun will insist on failing to see the essential >> difference between an ice cream and a piece of code, and I shall be >> treading this ground again pretty soon :-) > >As long as I can give someone a piece of code and get an ice cream, >yes. > >> >> It really depends on your view of life: do you consider >> yourself to live in abundance, or do you consider yourself stricken by >> poverty? If the latter, then it makes sense to grab every penny out >> of every ++ that you can put into a file and name it ``.c''. If the >> former you can think beyond yourself and try to see the big picture. >> > >It's not about greed - as you've pointed out. It's about choice. I >can and still do - donate money/code as I wish. Not because someone >forces me to. > >Let me stress again that I'm not opposed to all of Stallman's principles. >I'm just opposed to his exclusivity. > > -Arun > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >LIG is all for free speech. But it was created for a purpose - to help >people discuss technical programming related issues about Linux. If >your messages are counterproductive to this purpose, your privileges to >submit messages can and will be revoked. > From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Mon Feb 28 22:44:15 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D086238056 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA26203 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:44:08 -0800 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:44:08 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft>; from SANIsoft on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 08:12:06AM -0000 X-Archive-Number: 200002/23 On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 08:12:06AM -0000, SANIsoft wrote: > Hello Folks, > > Throwing a radical spanner in to the discussion > > Free Software is the protest from the thinkers who are "on strike" > > I/We just refuse to sell software to people who will further exploit me (and > not give credit :-) If you "sell" software, you're by definition not exploited, unless you didn't get a fair price for the software you wrote. Why do you think someone who is selling you software is exploiting you ? The only way I can see exploitation happening is if you're paying more than what the software is worth or you (as the author) is getting less than what you deserve for the work. Either way, in a free market economy, you're "free" to go sell your own software at a fair price to kick the over priced software company out of the market. > > So for me free software comes closer to objectivism than anything else > > I have a whole lot more on that - BUT - then it is a personal opinion and > few people would give a damn about objectivism I'm a little surprised that you mentioned objectivism and free software in the same breath. Have you read the two URLs below ? http://www.objectivism.org/home.html http://microsoft.aynrand.org/microsoft.html But after reading the websites above, I do see what you're getting to. Specifically, the politics section in this URL: http://www.objectivism.org/objectivism/essentials.html Politics "The basic social principle of the Objectivist ethics is that no man has the right to seek values from others by means of physical force - i.e., no man or group has the right to initiate the use of physical force against others. Men have the right to use force only in self-defense and only against those who initiate its use. Men must deal with one another as traders, giving value for value, by free, mutual consent to mutual benefit. The only social system that bars physical force from human relationships is laissez-faire capitalism. Capitalism is a system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which the only function of the government is to protect individual rights, i.e., to protect men from those who initiate the use of physical force." Thus Objectivism rejects any form of collectivism, such as fascism or socialism. It also rejects the current "mixed economy" notion that the government should regulate the economy and redistribute wealth. So you're basically saying that free software is some sort of civil disobedience movement in a capitalistic society. So you're basically opposing the system, by being a part of it and playing by its rules ? Using a license to defeat licenses ? In any case, the conflict between objectivism and free software is all too clear in the above quote - objectivism and collectivism don't go together. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Mon Feb 28 23:04:05 2000 Received: from bgl2.vsnl.net.in (bgl2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.46]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DA638095 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from udhay ([202.54.37.115]) by bgl2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20385 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:22:09 +0530 (IST) X-Pgp-Dsskey: 0x55FAB8D3 X-Pgp-Rsakey: 0xCAA67415 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000229123136.009aee50@202.54.12.17> X-Nil: Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:33:39 +0530 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org From: Udhay Shankar N Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin In-Reply-To: <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200002/24 At 10:44 PM 2/28/00 -0800, Arun Sharma wrote: >If you "sell" software, you're by definition not exploited, unless you >didn't get a fair price for the software you wrote. Just derailing the discussion for a minute, I think you should take a look at this - rather amusing. http://segfault.org/story.phtml?mode=2&id=38b8d2e8-03bb71c0 Buyers of pirated W2K get what they pay for Many purchasers of illicit software are becoming disappointed when they realize that the pirated copies of Windows 2000 they are buying are priced at what the software is worth. "I paid my buddy $1.50 for a Windows 2000 CD he picked up in Russia," said one annoyed buyer. "Little did I know that the thing was only worth $1.50." -- _____________________________________________________________________ http://www.unimobile.com/ http://pobox.com/~udhay Unimobile - the world's first internet mobile Now Live ! From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Mon Feb 28 23:17:49 2000 Received: from hd2.dot.net.in (hd2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.30.2]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D7838057 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from frodo.kcircle.com (root@[203.197.20.221]) by hd2.dot.net.in (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09754; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:46:30 +0530 (IST) Received: (from r.suresh@localhost) by frodo.kcircle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA00873; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:49:54 +0530 X-Authentication-Warning: frodo.kcircle.com: r.suresh set sender to r.suresh@mailandnews.com using -f Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:49:54 +0530 From: Suresh Ramasubramanian To: Arun Sharma Cc: LI General Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.4i In-Reply-To: <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 10:44:08PM -0800 Organization: CAUCE India X-Archive-Number: 200002/25 Thus spake Arun Sharma: >Either way, in a free market economy, you're "free" to go sell your own >software at a fair price to kick the over priced software company out >of the market. The GNU project is also about freedom of choice - having a cost effective alternative to being locked into forced, high priced upgrades every other month for software which tends to crash more than function properly. > capitalism. Capitalism is a system based on > the recognition of individual rights, including Objectivism ... Communism ... GNU is ~not~ an "ISM" for God's sake. Take free market economy to its extreme limits and you get the slumlords and sadistic overseers of the Industrial Revolution (or Fritz Lang's classic "Metropolis"). Get communism and you are forced to give up ALL rights to the state - and have no freedom of choice at all. George Orwell's 1984. Ayn Rand's "Objectivism" is, at best, an extremely ill defined and rambling concept - a "plague on both your houses" rant rejecting both communism and capitalism. > also rejects the current "mixed economy" notion > that the government should regulate the economy Utopian. The GNU is not out to take control of your life, and arrest you for using non GNU products. In fact, open source means much better integration with proprietory products (like those M$ trots out). Nor is it a movement to suppress intellectual property - or else, within a few years, people would forget the original author of the program - and just think of it as "Written by GNU" as in "Produced by M$". This is clearly false. In fact, the GPL is an extremely powerful guard for intellectual property. If it is free - there is NO incentive to rip it off / pirate it :) I've never seen warez / cracks of GPL products :) -- Suresh Ramasubramanian | President, CAUCE India r.suresh@mailandnews.com | suresh@india.cauce.org http://www.india.cauce.org | Stopping Spam In India -- You have a tendency to feel you are superior to most computers. From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Mon Feb 28 23:35:50 2000 Received: from exocore.com (unknown [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7798038059 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01312 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:07:16 +0530 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:07:15 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General Subject: Non-political term Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200002/26 Is there a non-politicised term to describe the phenomenon of thousands of people collaborating on a software project, building communities and changing the world? One that started sometime in the early 90's, revived the concept of sharing and rallying around a cause, and is actually being accepted today as a norm (rather than a compulsion)? "GNU" is not applicable because of the way it has been turned into a political battleground, and I won't even mention "GPL" or "OpenSource". In the past (and currently), I have used the name "Linux" to describe the phenomenon, for no other reason that people identify with it, recognise it and associate it with success through technical prowess rather than brute political force. This means that I effectively look at Linux as neither a kernel nor an OS, but as a movement, or a symptom. I wonder whether this is acceptable, though? Reading some recent posts, and transcripts of speeches, I wonder whether this is OK or whether this "third perspective" of mine is just leading the troops into yet another minefield? Atul p.s. The loud "click" you just heard was my closing the buckle of my asbestos boxer shorts. -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Mon Feb 28 23:52:18 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868F838136 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:52:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA26516 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:52:08 -0800 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:52:08 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: LI General Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com>; from Suresh Ramasubramanian on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 12:49:54PM +0530 X-Archive-Number: 200002/27 On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 12:49:54PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > The GNU project is also about freedom of choice - having a cost effective > alternative to being locked into forced, high priced upgrades every other > month for software which tends to crash more than function properly. I'm not so sure. No doubt, GNU software has resulted in cost effective free software, but that is not the main goal. Ask RMS and he'll tell that "free" as in speech is a higher goal than providing "free" as in beer software. > Objectivism ... Communism ... GNU is ~not~ an "ISM" for God's > sake. Take free market economy to its extreme limits and you get the > slumlords and sadistic overseers of the Industrial Revolution (or Fritz > Lang's classic "Metropolis"). > > Get communism and you are forced to give up ALL rights to the state - and > have no freedom of choice at all. George Orwell's 1984. > Well said. I'm arguing that GPL, GNU ideals = communism, an extreme and that we should find the middle ground and that middle ground is the BSD license. I think that BSD licensed software is more practical and benefits the end user more than GPL'ed software, because GPL'ed software tries to force it's philosophy into every form of software it mixes with. > Ayn Rand's "Objectivism" is, at best, an extremely ill defined and > rambling concept - a "plague on both your houses" rant rejecting both > communism and capitalism. It wasn't my idea. Tariq brought it up. I just noted that it didn't match GNU ideals. > > > also rejects the current "mixed economy" notion > > that the government should regulate the economy > > Utopian. The GNU is not out to take control of your life, and arrest you > for using non GNU products. In fact, open source means much better > integration with proprietory products (like those M$ trots out). GNU project does and will attempt to sue me if I try to mix their product in proprietary products. At least they say so publicly, though it hasn't happened yet, AFAIK. > > Nor is it a movement to suppress intellectual property - or else, within a > few years, people would forget the original author of the program - and > just think of it as "Written by GNU" as in "Produced by M$". This is > clearly false. > While it honors copyright, the GNU project is opposed to intellectual property and patenting. At least, that is my understanding. > In fact, the GPL is an extremely powerful guard for intellectual property. > If it is free - there is NO incentive to rip it off / pirate it :) I've > never seen warez / cracks of GPL products :) That's an innovative definiton of property! The general public opinion that I sense here is that Linux, a piece of GPL'ed software has been useful to all of you. It has been useful to me too. Therefore everything associated with it must be right. That's a flawed argument. I think Linux did a lot of things right. GPL is not one of them. All said and done, I believe that software license is a personal choice. I don't whine with GPL authors to change their license. But I don't mind participating in rational discussion on the issue :) -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 00:02:43 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE4D3813B for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:02:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA26588 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:02:32 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:02:32 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Linux India General Subject: Re: Non-political term Message-ID: <20000229000232.A26536@sharmas.dhs.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Atul Chitnis on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 01:07:15PM +0530 X-Archive-Number: 200002/28 On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 01:07:15PM +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote: > > In the past (and currently), I have used the name "Linux" to describe the > phenomenon, for no other reason that people identify with it, recognise it > and associate it with success through technical prowess rather than brute > political force. This means that I effectively look at Linux as neither a > kernel nor an OS, but as a movement, or a symptom. > [...] > > p.s. The loud "click" you just heard was my closing the buckle of my > asbestos boxer shorts. Actually, the strength of Linux is that it is the least controversial among all other contenders - thanks mainly to the smart leader that Linus is. The problem with the term is - it is also a kernel and an OS, and not an original one - but an imitation, both as an OS and a movement. "Free software" is what appeals to ordinary people - even those who haven't heard of Linux. But as you already realize, it is a controversial term. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 00:37:44 2000 Received: from brahma.webginn.com (unknown [203.197.39.2]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE05C3805D for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from outsider ([203.197.39.35]) by brahma.webginn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA01958 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:15:08 +0530 Message-ID: <002901bf82be$b6c7ae80$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> Reply-To: "SANIsoft" From: "SANIsoft" To: Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:09:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-Archive-Number: 200002/29 >So you're basically saying that free software is some sort >of civil disobedience movement in a capitalistic society. So you're Yes! a rather good way to put it - unfortunately most of the interpretations of objectivism are lopsided and twisted to favour M$ Bill Gates is the James Taggart of Software industry if I may say so Free software means that *I* also have the freedom not to give it away for free - not to sell it at a price lower than *I* feel it deserves or vice versa I give away a whole lot of scripts I write because 1) I can 2) It serves my vanity 3) It is a great PR excercise Is that being altruistic (and how many developers can say that they do what they do for anything else ....) all that may sound rather green - but then I have the freedom to do it. In fact Suresh has summed up a lot of what I feel More when I am in a more coherent frame of mind :-) Cheers Tarique ======================================= Creating not just Web Sites but Web Applications http://www.sanisoft-india.com Search Engine for Nagpur http://nagpurcity.net ======================================= -----Original Message----- From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org <> Date: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:52 AM Subject: Re: [LIG] Free software, proprietary software and Stalin >On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 08:12:06AM -0000, SANIsoft wrote: >> Hello Folks, >> >> Throwing a radical spanner in to the discussion >> >> Free Software is the protest from the thinkers who are "on strike" From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 07:18:02 2000 Received: from deliverator.sgi.com (deliverator.sgi.com [204.94.214.10]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C6F38083 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (fddi-nodin.corp.sgi.com [198.29.75.193]) by deliverator.sgi.com (980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id HAA17786; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:13:18 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id HAA72068; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id UAA40524; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:47:28 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23979; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:47:37 +0530 (IST) From: Raj Mathur Message-ID: <14523.58129.403777.564157@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:47:37 +0530 (IST) To: Arun Sharma Cc: LI General Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin In-Reply-To: <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200002/30 Hi Arun, Essentially you're saying that you use GNU products because they're so good, but you resent the licensing implications. Well, it's pretty simple: don't use GNU products. I completely fail to see what Communism, Socialism, Objectivism, Capitalism, etc have to do with this. The only ``ism'' I can associate with this movement is (hehheh) ``Freedomism''. If you're happy with the software and the license, use it. If not, *shrug* there's no dearth of companies waiting out there to sell you mediocre or downright bad software for lots of money. Simmilarly, if you don't like the GNU license, don't use GNU tools to develop your software and don't link them with GNU libraries... there's always a choice. As far as I'm concerned the GNU license (at worst) is no worse than MS' licenses, and actually stands head and shoulders above, leave alone proprietary software licenses, even sorry imitations like the Sun Community Software License. AND you don't have to subscribe to it if you don't like it! No one is pushing it down your throat, no one is making you work on GNU software or else, no one is preinstalling GPL'd software on millions of PC's and making you pay for it... just walk away! Regards, -- Raju >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 12:49:54PM +0530, Suresh Arun> Ramasubramanian wrote: >> The GNU project is also about freedom of choice - having a cost >> effective alternative to being locked into forced, high priced >> upgrades every other month for software which tends to crash >> more than function properly. Arun> I'm not so sure. No doubt, GNU software has resulted in cost Arun> effective free software, but that is not the main goal. Ask Arun> RMS and he'll tell that "free" as in speech is a higher goal Arun> than providing "free" as in beer software. >> Objectivism ... Communism ... GNU is ~not~ an "ISM" for God's >> sake. Take free market economy to its extreme limits and you >> get the slumlords and sadistic overseers of the Industrial >> Revolution (or Fritz Lang's classic "Metropolis"). >> >> Get communism and you are forced to give up ALL rights to the >> state - and have no freedom of choice at all. George Orwell's >> 1984. >> Arun> Well said. I'm arguing that GPL, GNU ideals = communism, an Arun> extreme and that we should find the middle ground and that Arun> middle ground is the BSD license. Arun> I think that BSD licensed software is more practical and Arun> benefits the end user more than GPL'ed software, because Arun> GPL'ed software tries to force it's philosophy into every Arun> form of software it mixes with. >> Ayn Rand's "Objectivism" is, at best, an extremely ill defined >> and rambling concept - a "plague on both your houses" rant >> rejecting both communism and capitalism. Arun> It wasn't my idea. Tariq brought it up. I just noted that it Arun> didn't match GNU ideals. >> > also rejects the current "mixed economy" notion > that the >> government should regulate the economy >> >> Utopian. The GNU is not out to take control of your life, and >> arrest you for using non GNU products. In fact, open source >> means much better integration with proprietory products (like >> those M$ trots out). Arun> GNU project does and will attempt to sue me if I try to mix Arun> their product in proprietary products. At least they say so Arun> publicly, though it hasn't happened yet, AFAIK. >> Nor is it a movement to suppress intellectual property - or >> else, within a few years, people would forget the original >> author of the program - and just think of it as "Written by >> GNU" as in "Produced by M$". This is clearly false. >> Arun> While it honors copyright, the GNU project is opposed to Arun> intellectual property and patenting. At least, that is my Arun> understanding. >> In fact, the GPL is an extremely powerful guard for >> intellectual property. If it is free - there is NO incentive >> to rip it off / pirate it :) I've never seen warez / cracks of >> GPL products :) Arun> That's an innovative definiton of property! Arun> The general public opinion that I sense here is that Linux, Arun> a piece of GPL'ed software has been useful to all of you. It Arun> has been useful to me too. Therefore everything associated Arun> with it must be right. That's a flawed argument. I think Arun> Linux did a lot of things right. GPL is not one of them. Arun> All said and done, I believe that software license is a Arun> personal choice. I don't whine with GPL authors to change Arun> their license. But I don't mind participating in rational Arun> discussion on the issue :) Arun> -Arun Arun> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Arun> For information on this and other Linux India mailing lists Arun> check out http://lists.linux-india.org/ From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 08:26:45 2000 Received: from exocore.com (d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D8538138 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:26:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02253 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:58:15 +0530 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:58:15 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General Subject: Re: Non-political term In-Reply-To: <20000229000232.A26536@sharmas.dhs.org> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200002/31 On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Arun Sharma wrote: > "Free software" is what appeals to ordinary people - even those who haven't > heard of Linux. But as you already realize, it is a controversial term. "Free software" is not the answer either, because I have personal experience with "free" - most people value something based on the price they paid for it, so it has a negative effect. And "free" (as in libre) isn't very helpful either, because it is too politicised. I used to think that the underdog effect was a major factor in people cosying up to Linux, but these days, Linux is hardly an underdog. Most people don't really seem to care that Linux is a Unix strain or free (as in beer), but realise that after years of "Where do you want to go today", it actually became "This is where you will go today/tomorrow", and that it wasn't a Good Thing(TM). Methinks that it is the fact that Linux offers choice that really makes the difference, but it is not Linux alone - BeOS, *BSD and others are part of the menu, too. What I am trying to describe (with the term I am searching for) is the spirit behind the return to choice - a single name/word/phrase that describes unambiguously the movement that was spearheaded by Linux (by giving it a much needed focal point). When I speak to people, I try many terms, but the biggest reaction I get is when I say "Linux" because, right or wrong, it in one word encapsulates everything that I am trying to say - the audience and I are immediately on the same page. Is this wrong? Is "Linux" becoming the equivalent of "Xerox" (which people use to describe the process of photocopying)? Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 08:51:37 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC1B338051 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA27693 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:51:29 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:51:29 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: LI General Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229085129.A27566@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <14523.58129.403777.564157@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <14523.58129.403777.564157@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from Raj Mathur on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 08:47:37PM +0530 X-Archive-Number: 200002/32 On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 08:47:37PM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: > Hi Arun, > > Essentially you're saying that you use GNU products because they're so > good, but you resent the licensing implications. Well, it's pretty > simple: don't use GNU products. Then you stop using Apache, Perl, TCP/IP, PPP, Adaptec cards in Linux and Microsoft windows because they don't use the GNU license. This is exactly the problem with the GNU license and the GPL mindset - inability to coexist with other free software thoughts. Note that I don't resent the implications of the GNU license. I just think that the goals that it's trying to achieve have been historically proven to be unachievable because of human tendencies. By being adamant on being the only kind of free software (by not mixing with other, arguably "more free" software), it is hindering progress. I think GPL is impractical in its goals. I "use" (but don't try too hard to extend) GPL'ed products for practical reasons. [ Your conspicuous absense to answers to my earlier mail debunking the distinctions between "goods" and software noted. ] -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 09:19:02 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E0638061 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:18:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA27833 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:18:53 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:18:53 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229091853.A27635@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <002901bf82be$b6c7ae80$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <002901bf82be$b6c7ae80$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft>; from SANIsoft on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 02:09:06PM -0000 X-Archive-Number: 200002/33 On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 02:09:06PM -0000, SANIsoft wrote: > > Free software means that *I* also have the freedom not to give it away for > free - not to sell it at a price lower than *I* feel it deserves or vice > versa Bang on target! The above is true, only if you've written everything from scratch. That's not true in the free software world - where the basic philosophy is to utilize existing code. If you've used GPL'ed code in your program, you lose the freedom you refer to above. The BSD license keeps that freedom intact. That's the whole point of the GPL Vs BSD debate. > > I give away a whole lot of scripts I write because > 1) I can > 2) It serves my vanity > 3) It is a great PR excercise > > Is that being altruistic (and how many developers can say that they do what > they do for anything else ....) > > all that may sound rather green - but then I have the freedom to do it. > I note that you don't have 4) Convert the whole world to write and use free software exclusively as a goal for your actions. Therefore I argue that you should release your software under the BSD license. I think people who work for companies that make and use proprietary software during the day and argue for GNU ideals by night are hypocrites. Then there are people who don't necessarily agree with the GNU ideals, but still use GPL as a tool to achieve their goals. I think Linux falls into this category - as stated by Linus at various interviews. Most of the world either (a) Doesn't care (b) Thinks GPL is a better license because Slashdot editors keep referring to it as cool (c) It has made it to a few T-shirts, therefore must be better than other licenses. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 09:49:05 2000 Received: from hd2.dot.net.in (hd2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.30.2]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09BC8380D5 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:48:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from frodo.kcircle.com (root@[203.197.20.205]) by hd2.dot.net.in (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA31048; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:17:51 +0530 (IST) Received: (from r.suresh@localhost) by frodo.kcircle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00928; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:21:43 +0530 X-Authentication-Warning: frodo.kcircle.com: r.suresh set sender to r.suresh@mailandnews.com using -f Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:21:43 +0530 From: Suresh Ramasubramanian To: Arun Sharma Cc: LI General Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.4i In-Reply-To: <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 11:52:08PM -0800 Organization: CAUCE India X-Archive-Number: 200002/34 Thus spake Arun Sharma: >I'm not so sure. No doubt, GNU software has resulted in cost effective >free software, but that is not the main goal. Ask RMS and he'll tell >that "free" as in speech is a higher goal than providing "free" as >in beer software. What I said is not just free s/w (as in free beer). It's open source. If you want to tweak a linux kernel for your needs, or compile in support for something non standard, proprietory (by hacking the linux kernel to recognize it) - no problemo. In fact, you'll be lionized :) OTOH, try hacking Win2K to make it compatible with your favorite game (and not waiting for M$ to release a patch). You'll get jumped upon so fast, you won't know what hit you. On this topic - the Cobalt RAQ and Qube boxen use a rather old version of linux (equivalent to redhat 5.1 and 5.2), customized with a kewl web based admin panel but otherwise full of holes as a swiss cheese. However, Cobalt (IIRC) says that you must download ONLY their patches (sendmail, bind etc etc), and are prohibited from upgrading your firmware. You do something on your own (say compiling a new version of sendmail / kernel) and your warranty is voided. ~How~ do they take GPL'd stuff and lock it into restrictions like this? Besides, their versions are so antiquated, they still ship boxen with 2.0.x kernels and 8.8.8 sendmail (that being their latest set of "patches"). If you are a webhosting co and don't fix these, you run the risk of getting yr boxen h4x0red. If you DO fix 'em, cobalt yanks your warranty. Now? Is ~this~ GPL? >Well said. I'm arguing that GPL, GNU ideals = communism, an extreme >and that we should find the middle ground and that middle ground is the >BSD license. The difference being Arun that RMS is not pointing a gun at your head and FORCING you to use GPL'd stuff. Use BSD licensed products if you wish, or a combination of both. Just respect the license each product you use is issued under - that's all imho. >I think that BSD licensed software is more practical and benefits the >end user more than GPL'ed software, because GPL'ed software tries to >force it's philosophy into every form of software it mixes with. Not much. GPL'd software in fact is much easier to interface with other softwares, just BECAUSE it's open source. The solution does not change, it never changes. Just the conditions under which the solution is made available change. >GNU project does and will attempt to sue me if I try to mix their >product in proprietary products. At least they say so publicly, though >it hasn't happened yet, AFAIK. I have never said that. If, you use GPL - then just GPL the hack you made (no more, no less) I don't see why GNU should have a beef. >While it honors copyright, the GNU project is opposed to intellectual >property and patenting. At least, that is my understanding. No. Patenting means "claiming" ownership. OTOH, here, your ownership is acknowledged tacitly, and you are respected even more because of this. Suppose I have some skill which I make available free to others - if others say "Suresh is kewl at that" (GPL) then ok. If ~I~ say "I'm the best and I'll help you if you acknowledge that I'm the best when you start helping others ..." (BSD) - that's not so kewl. rather twisted, but I hope you got me. >> never seen warez / cracks of GPL products :) >That's an innovative definiton of property! Property is measured in rather intangible terms here. >All said and done, I believe that software license is a personal choice. >I don't whine with GPL authors to change their license. But I don't mind >participating in rational discussion on the issue :) Calling either GPL or BSD brain dead is NO solution at all. -- Suresh Ramasubramanian | President, CAUCE India r.suresh@mailandnews.com | suresh@india.cauce.org http://www.india.cauce.org | Stopping Spam In India -- Those who can't write, write manuals. From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 10:32:28 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E83038139 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:32:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA27989 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:32:20 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:32:19 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: LI General Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229103219.A27951@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com>; from Suresh Ramasubramanian on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 11:21:43PM +0530 X-Archive-Number: 200002/35 On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 11:21:43PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > > What I said is not just free s/w (as in free beer). It's open source. If > you want to tweak a linux kernel for your needs, or compile in support for > something non standard, proprietory (by hacking the linux kernel to > recognize it) - no problemo. In fact, you'll be lionized :) > > OTOH, try hacking Win2K to make it compatible with your favorite game (and > not waiting for M$ to release a patch). You'll get jumped upon so fast, > you won't know what hit you. Are Linux and Win2k the only OSes in the world ? FreeBSD also has all the desirable properties you describe above. > > On this topic - the Cobalt RAQ and Qube boxen use a rather old version of > linux (equivalent to redhat 5.1 and 5.2), customized with a kewl web based > admin panel but otherwise full of holes as a swiss cheese. > > However, Cobalt (IIRC) says that you must download ONLY their patches > (sendmail, bind etc etc), and are prohibited from upgrading your > firmware. You do something on your own (say compiling a new version of > sendmail / kernel) and your warranty is voided. If you think Cobalt is broken, don't use them. There is no cause and effect relationship between BSD license and Cobalt behavior. This is similar to - if you don't like GPL, don't use GNU stuff argument. The only difference is that GPL explicitly preaches you not to use the other stuff. MS EULA doesn't tell you not to use GNU software on it. > ~How~ do they take GPL'd stuff and lock it into restrictions like > this? Besides, their versions are so antiquated, they still ship boxen > with 2.0.x kernels and 8.8.8 sendmail (that being their latest set of > "patches"). Those are just the realities of the commercial world. Unless you've tested something thoroughly, you can't ship them. Free software is a lot more forgiving. Again, I don't see how Cobalt can force you to run sendmail xxx. Even MS can't. You're still free to run whatever version you want, but it won't be *supported*. > > If you are a webhosting co and don't fix these, you run the risk of > getting yr boxen h4x0red. If you DO fix 'em, cobalt yanks your warranty. > > Now? Is ~this~ GPL? > This has nothing to do with GPL vs BSD. Even VA Linux could do this to you. > >Well said. I'm arguing that GPL, GNU ideals = communism, an extreme > >and that we should find the middle ground and that middle ground is the > >BSD license. > > The difference being Arun that RMS is not pointing a gun at your head and > FORCING you to use GPL'd stuff. Use BSD licensed products if you wish, or > a combination of both. Bang on target again. I can't mix the two. I can point you at any number of projects on the web, which do not allow GPL'ed code into their source base. > Just respect the license each product you use is > issued under - that's all imho. Which I do all the time. It's just that I want to prevent more programmer sweat being wasted (my opinion). > > >I think that BSD licensed software is more practical and benefits the > >end user more than GPL'ed software, because GPL'ed software tries to > >force it's philosophy into every form of software it mixes with. > > Not much. GPL'd software in fact is much easier to interface with other > softwares, just BECAUSE it's open source. The word "interfacing" is ambiguous. Same address space is more precise. GPL doesn't let you do that. BSD is also open source and is arguably easier to interface with other software. > The solution does not change, > it never changes. Just the conditions under which the solution is made > available change. Yes, the argument is about those conditions. > > >GNU project does and will attempt to sue me if I try to mix their > >product in proprietary products. At least they say so publicly, though > >it hasn't happened yet, AFAIK. > > I have never said that. If, you use GPL - then just GPL the hack you made > (no more, no less) I don't see why GNU should have a beef. In a cosmopolitan free software world, using *only* GPL hinders progress. > > >While it honors copyright, the GNU project is opposed to intellectual > >property and patenting. At least, that is my understanding. > > No. Patenting means "claiming" ownership. OTOH, here, your ownership is > acknowledged tacitly, and you are respected even more because of this. That definition of intellectual property is not acceptable to me and nor to courts in any democratic country. > Suppose I have some skill which I make available free to others - if > others say "Suresh is kewl at that" (GPL) then ok. If ~I~ say "I'm the > best and I'll help you if you acknowledge that I'm the best when > you start helping others ..." (BSD) - that's not so kewl. > > rather twisted, but I hope you got me. No, I didn't get you. Perhaps you can explain it better ? > > >All said and done, I believe that software license is a personal choice. > >I don't whine with GPL authors to change their license. But I don't mind > >participating in rational discussion on the issue :) > > Calling either GPL or BSD brain dead is NO solution at all. > I never called GPL brain dead or RMS an evil person. I've always maintained that GPL is impractical and a hinderance to progress. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 10:37:18 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 517D838148 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28017 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:37:10 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:37:10 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229103710.B27951@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <002901bf82be$b6c7ae80$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000229091853.A27635@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <20000229091853.A27635@sharmas.dhs.org>; from Arun Sharma on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 09:18:53AM -0800 X-Archive-Number: 200002/36 On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 09:18:53AM -0800, Arun Sharma wrote: > > I think people who work for companies that make and use proprietary > software during the day and argue for GNU ideals by night are > hypocrites. Since that's a sweeping statment, perhaps I should explain it better. I advocate BSD software and commercial software where appropriate, but I use GNU software too. Does that make me a hypocrite ? I believe no, because neither BSD nor MS EULA say don't use GNU software with them. GNU ideology explicitly advocates destroying commercial software. This is where the hypocrisy comes in. On second thoughts, hypocrisy is too strong a word - I should've used contradiction. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 11:26:28 2000 Received: from hd2.dot.net.in (hd2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.30.2]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F57D38146 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:26:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from frodo.kcircle.com (root@[203.197.20.192]) by hd2.dot.net.in (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15332; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:55:10 +0530 (IST) Received: (from r.suresh@localhost) by frodo.kcircle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01241; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:51:59 +0530 X-Authentication-Warning: frodo.kcircle.com: r.suresh set sender to r.suresh@mailandnews.com using -f Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:51:59 +0530 From: Suresh Ramasubramanian To: Raj Mathur , Atul Chitnis Cc: LI General Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000301005159.A1233@kcircle.com> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <14523.58129.403777.564157@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.4i In-Reply-To: <14523.58129.403777.564157@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from raju@sgi.com on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 08:47:37PM +0530 Organization: CAUCE India X-Archive-Number: 200002/37 Thus spake Raj Mathur: >Capitalism, etc have to do with this. The only ``ism'' I can >associate with this movement is (hehheh) ``Freedomism''. If you're Atul - You have that magic (and non controversial) word you were searching for here. Sure beats Linux. If GNU is not Unix, surely you can say GNU is not Linux :) >making you work on GNU software or else, no one is preinstalling GPL'd >software on millions of PC's and making you pay for it... just walk What about a Dell PC bundled with Linux? ;) -- Suresh Ramasubramanian | President, CAUCE India r.suresh@mailandnews.com | suresh@india.cauce.org http://www.india.cauce.org | Stopping Spam In India -- "Text processing has made it possible to right-justify any idea, even one which cannot be justified on any other grounds." -- J. Finnegan, USC. From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 11:44:42 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8333813C for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:44:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id NAA12303; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:38:15 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Tue Feb 29 13:38:14 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 29 Feb 2000 13:38:15 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:52:08 -0800" Message-ID: <87u2irhk9k.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 80 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/38 Hi, I may have missed some messages -- the list was strangely silent over the weekend. In particular, I wrote a longish mail message that evoked no responses that I recieved. Please email me if you actually saw a message from me about the economics of fee software. >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> Well said. I'm arguing that GPL, GNU ideals = communism, an Arun> extreme and that we should find the middle ground and that Arun> middle ground is the BSD license. Thisis yor opinion, and I beg to differ. My take is that the *BSD licence suits people whose sole concern is self aggrandizement: their only concern is that their name is on the software; and they have no concerns about community, or what happens to their software. The GPL adherent does not care about the cost -- they care about having a growing code base, and ex-plicitly provide their code for others who are willing to contribute back. For these people, the GPL provides a degree of protection that the BSD licences do not. Also, the *BSD licence is favoured by those who want to make money off (pardon me) gullible coders who are not protecting themselves, and who have no compuctions about taking the code, making modifications, and making the code proprietary. I understand that there are going to be people at the fringe of the movement that are in it only for money, and I can live with that; however, it rouses my ire when these entities try to convince people not to enact protections for their software that theGPL provides. In other words, I am pointing out that exhortations to use BSD licences rather than the stronger GPL could have ulterior motives; espescially if the person from whom they come has already stated that monetary incentives are a strong driving force for them. Arun> I think that BSD licensed software is more practical and benefits the Arun> end user more than GPL'ed software, because GPL'ed software tries to Arun> force it's philosophy into every form of software it mixes with. It is the community, S----d (no offence intended). Yes, the GPL code is by and for the community that embraces the GPL -- and others are largely irrelevant to the community membvers. So, if you care about the fee software communiuty, the GPL actually provides protection for it -- and is way more practical than the BSD licences are to achieve those ends. Of course, if you want to make money off other peoples efforts, the GPL is a bad idea -- but not all of us are motivated by money alone. Arun> GNU project does and will attempt to sue me if I try to mix their Arun> product in proprietary products. At least they say so publicly, though Arun> it hasn't happened yet, AFAIK. If it is my code you use, please be advised that I *shall* sue you to protect what I feel is the community. If you don't liek that, don't use GPL'd code -- you are not the target audience for it. Arun> While it honors copyright, the GNU project is opposed to intellectual Arun> property and patenting. At least, that is my understanding. We even honour patents. And we try, within the law, to use the copyright to *give* rights to the users rather than remove it from them. I find it kinda ironic. manoj -- If another scientist thought your research was more important than his (or hers), he would drop what he is doing and do what you are doing. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 11:54:02 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBE183813C for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:53:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id NAA12630; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:51:38 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Tue Feb 29 13:51:34 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <14523.58129.403777.564157@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <20000229085129.A27566@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 29 Feb 2000 13:51:37 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:51:29 -0800" Message-ID: <87putfhjna.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 61 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/39 >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> Then you stop using Apache, Perl, TCP/IP, PPP, Adaptec cards in Linux Arun> and Microsoft windows because they don't use the GNU license. This is highly illogical. You said you had a problem with the GNU philosophy. We never said we had a problem using DFSG code.. And our philosophy is what determines the licence I issue my code under. I still use proprietary software -- I would prefer not to have to. But I am not going to be childish about it. Arun> This is exactly the problem with the GNU license and the GPL Arun> mindset - inability to coexist with other free software Arun> thoughts. Oh, I coexist with whatever is legal, And this coexist thing is specious anyway -- the GPL is no less amenable to use than eny other -- for the free software community. Yes, the GPL is quite unfriendly to people who leech on to and try to horad other peoples software. Note you can makle changes to and charge for software -- you can't just make it proprietary. I like that. I hate people making money off other peoples work. Arun> Note that I don't resent the implications of the GNU license. I Arun> just think that the goals that it's trying to achieve have been Arun> historically proven to be unachievable because of human Arun> tendencies. I think you are wrong. The conditions have never been as favourable for free software as they are now -- and non-software history is inapplicable here. And that is the explanation for the restrictions in the GPL -- it prevents the leeches and the piler ons from destroying and overwhelming the fledgling community. Arun> By being adamant on being the only kind of free software (by Arun> not mixing with other, arguably "more free" software), it is Arun> hindering progress. I would rather think liog term. In the short term, opening things out and not protecting software may mean more Arun> I think GPL is impractical in its goals. I "use" (but don't try too Arun> hard to extend) GPL'ed products for practical reasons. I find that gcc, emacs, bison, et al to be practical enough to convince me. manoj -- genius, n.: Person clever enough to be born in the right place at the right time of the right sex and to follow up this advantage by saying all the right things to all the right people. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 12:04:47 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2DDF3813C for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id NAA12829; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:59:35 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Tue Feb 29 13:59:34 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 29 Feb 2000 13:59:35 -0600 In-Reply-To: Suresh Ramasubramanian's message of "Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:21:43 +0530" Message-ID: <87ln43hja0.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 39 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/40 >>"Suresh" == Suresh Ramasubramanian writes: Suresh> However, Cobalt (IIRC) says that you must download ONLY their patches Suresh> (sendmail, bind etc etc), and are prohibited from upgrading your Suresh> firmware. You do something on your own (say compiling a new version of Suresh> sendmail / kernel) and your warranty is voided. Warranty implies support. They are only willing to support what you get from them -- sounds reasonable to me. Suresh> ~How~ do they take GPL'd stuff and lock it into restrictions like Suresh> this? What restrictions? You _can_ download your won kernel. You can give away their kernle- and that is what the GPL guarantees. Supporting an unknown installation is expensive -- and you are probably not paying for that level of support. If you do not like thesupport you get, that is something you have to negotiate woth the company -- softwqare licencing is not involved here. Suresh> Now? Is ~this~ GPL? Sure it is. The GPL talks about distribution -- you can distribute their code, and you can do whatever you want on your machine. But that would invalidate the model they use for debugging and escalation solutions -- and it shall cost them too much to suppoort any general environment out thre. I am sure you can negotiate a platinum level support -- if not, send me email offline, and I'll giveyou any level of support you want -- at a price, of course. manoj -- It is illegal to say "Oh, Boy" in Jonesboro, Georgia. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 12:14:01 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57DAA38150 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id OAA13000; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:04:10 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Tue Feb 29 14:04:09 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin References: <002901bf82be$b6c7ae80$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 29 Feb 2000 14:04:10 -0600 In-Reply-To: "SANIsoft"'s message of "Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:09:06 -0000" Message-ID: <87hferhj2d.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/41 >>"Tarique" == SANIsoft writes: Tarique> Free software means that *I* also have the freedom not to Tarique> give it away for free - not to sell it at a price lower than Tarique> *I* feel it deserves or vice versa As an author, you have the absolute right to distribute your code under whatever licence you wish -- including purely propreitary. You can even do so if you have already released your code under the GPL -- you are the author, after all. You can't take other peoples code and relicence it -- you would be violating their rights. amnoj -- "As soon as you are willing to discard observational data because it conflicts with religion, you are giving up any hope of ever really understanding the universe. As soon as you pick religion as the touchstone of reality, then we have to start discussing how one can demonstrate the correctness of one religion over another when different *religions* disagree." Wilson Heydt (whheydt@PacBell.COM) "The answer is simple: kill the heretics. History shows us that this is the actual solution that competing religions apply -- trial by combat or trial by ordeal. God is the final arbiter. What a sad waste of human potential it has proven to be." Paul Hager (hagerp@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu) Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 12:24:13 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7144D38149 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id OAA13318; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:16:32 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Tue Feb 29 14:16:29 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin References: <002901bf82be$b6c7ae80$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000229091853.A27635@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229103710.B27951@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 29 Feb 2000 14:16:29 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:37:10 -0800" Message-ID: <87d7pfhihu.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 33 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/42 >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> GNU ideology explicitly advocates destroying commercial software. This Arun> is where the hypocrisy comes in. Rubbish. Please quote chapter and verse about where anyone talks about destroying commercial software. You are just displaying your lack of understanding of the arguments that the free software community embraces. The argument always has been that software ownership is an idea that is detr4imental to society in general, and thus one should work towards getting the laws and rules changed. Most of the arguments are to support this. Arun> On second thoughts, hypocrisy is too strong a word - I should've used Arun> contradiction. There is no contradiction ivolved -- I strogly suggest you go read www.gnu.org. Once you have done that, perhaps we can have a more rational discussion, but at this moment you are massively confused about the viewpoint that you oppose. manoj -- A study of the science of technology defines what is possible; a study of the economics of technology establishes which of the possibilities is practical and useful. -- Montgomery Phister Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 12:34:06 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908B038155 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:33:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id OAA13612; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:28:21 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Tue Feb 29 14:28:20 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Non-political term References: From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 29 Feb 2000 14:28:21 -0600 In-Reply-To: Atul Chitnis's message of "Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:07:15 +0530 (IST)" Message-ID: <879003hhy2.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 58 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/43 >>"Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: Atul> Is there a non-politicised term to describe the phenomenon of Atul> thousands of people collaborating on a software project, Atul> building communities and changing the world? One that started Atul> sometime in the early 90's, revived the concept of sharing and Atul> rallying around a cause, and is actually being accepted today Atul> as a norm (rather than a compulsion)? Atul> "GNU" is not applicable because of the way it has been turned into a Atul> political battleground, and I won't even mention "GPL" or "OpenSource". GNU is a project, it is definitely not a term describing the synergy inherent in free software communities. It is o more applicable than Debian or Apache, though onot for the reasons you cite. (Actually, I have a problem with the reason, because mere controversy should not invalidate an otherwiwse correct term). The GPL is a licence; it definitely is not applicable either. OpenSource comes closest, but it is a descritpion of licencing terms of software, and definitely not a descriptive term for the phenomena Atul> In the past (and currently), I have used the name "Linux" to Atul> describe the phenomenon, for no other reason that people Atul> identify with it, recognise it and associate it with success Atul> through technical prowess rather than brute political Atul> force. This means that I effectively look at Linux as neither a Atul> kernel nor an OS, but as a movement, or a symptom. That is certainly a unique perspective. Atul> I wonder whether this is acceptable, though? Reading some Atul> recent posts, and transcripts of speeches, I wonder whether Atul> this is OK or whether this "third perspective" of mine is just Atul> leading the troops into yet another minefield? It would not be a minefield, but it is definitely counter intuitive and confusing, since the terms you have picked so far have very definite meaning to people, and none fo their meaning/usage is quite what you are trying to convey. My advice is to coin a word or a phrase -- invoke synergy, distributed eyeballs, release often, release early, etc. Doesn't ESR's Bazaar come close to describing it? manoj -- "To me, on of the most exciting things in the world is being poor, and survival, such an exciting challenge." Thomas S. Monaghan, Founder, Domino's Pizza and Legatus, "National Catholic Reporter", 3/23/90, as quoted in "The Far Right, Speaking For Themselves," a Planned Parenthood pamphlet Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 12:54:37 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E09638153 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id OAA14301; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:51:38 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Tue Feb 29 14:51:37 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Non-political term References: From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 29 Feb 2000 14:51:37 -0600 In-Reply-To: Atul Chitnis's message of "Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:58:15 +0530 (IST)" Message-ID: <874sarhgva.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/44 >>"Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: Atul> What I am trying to describe (with the term I am searching for) is the Atul> spirit behind the return to choice - a single name/word/phrase that Atul> describes unambiguously the movement that was spearheaded by Linux (by Atul> giving it a much needed focal point). Atul> When I speak to people, I try many terms, but the biggest reaction I get Atul> is when I say "Linux" because, right or wrong, it in one word encapsulates Atul> everything that I am trying to say - the audience and I are immediately on Atul> the same page. Atul> Is this wrong? Is "Linux" becoming the equivalent of "Xerox" (which people Atul> use to describe the process of photocopying)? Frankly, I have never heard Linux being used in that context. I have genrally hear the phrase "Bazaar style of development" that comes closest to describing the phenomena. http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ manoj -- Stay away from hurricanes for a while. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 17:01:49 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AF9538081 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA28591 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:01:39 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:01:39 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229170139.A28566@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <14523.58129.403777.564157@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <20000229085129.A27566@sharmas.dhs.org> <87putfhjna.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87putfhjna.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 01:51:37PM -0600 X-Archive-Number: 200002/45 On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 01:51:37PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: > > Arun> Then you stop using Apache, Perl, TCP/IP, PPP, Adaptec cards in Linux > Arun> and Microsoft windows because they don't use the GNU license. > > This is highly illogical. You said you had a problem with the > GNU philosophy. We never said we had a problem using DFSG code.. And > our philosophy is what determines the licence I issue my code under. GNU project does have a problem with the BSD license. Read RMS's article on this on gnu.org. And BSD license is DFSG compliant. > > I still use proprietary software -- I would prefer not to have > to. But I am not going to be childish about it. > Similarly, I still use GNU software, but I prefer not to have to. And I'm not going to comment on whether you're grown up or not. > Arun> This is exactly the problem with the GNU license and the GPL > Arun> mindset - inability to coexist with other free software > Arun> thoughts. > > Oh, I coexist with whatever is legal, And this coexist thing > is specious anyway -- the GPL is no less amenable to use than eny > other -- for the free software community. > > Yes, the GPL is quite unfriendly to people who leech on to and > try to horad other peoples software. Note you can makle changes to > and charge for software -- you can't just make it proprietary. > > I like that. I hate people making money off other peoples work. > Your ideas are based on hatred. That's the problem. [ snip lecture about leeches etc ] > > Arun> By being adamant on being the only kind of free software (by > Arun> not mixing with other, arguably "more free" software), it is > Arun> hindering progress. > > I would rather think liog term. In the short term, opening > things out and not protecting software may mean more > > Arun> I think GPL is impractical in its goals. I "use" (but don't try too > Arun> hard to extend) GPL'ed products for practical reasons. > > I find that gcc, emacs, bison, et al to be practical enough to > convince me. Ever tried using gcc on Alpha ? -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 17:34:37 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB13438081 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA28796 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:34:29 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:34:28 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229173428.B28566@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <002901bf82be$b6c7ae80$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000229091853.A27635@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229103710.B27951@sharmas.dhs.org> <87d7pfhihu.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87d7pfhihu.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 02:16:29PM -0600 X-Archive-Number: 200002/46 On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 02:16:29PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: > > Arun> GNU ideology explicitly advocates destroying commercial software. This > Arun> is where the hypocrisy comes in. > > Rubbish. Please quote chapter and verse about where anyone > talks about destroying commercial software. You are just > displaying your lack of understanding of the arguments that > the free software community embraces. "Why software should not have owners" below: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html If software can not have owners, commercial software can not exist. In other words, commercial software gets destroyed. That is a stated goal. From the GNU Manifesto: "My company needs a proprietary operating system to get a competitive edge." GNU will remove operating system software from the realm of competition. You will not be able to get an edge in this area, but neither will your competitors be able to get an edge over you. You and they will compete in other areas, while benefiting mutually in this one. If your business is selling an operating system, you will not like GNU, but that's tough on you. If your business is something else, GNU can save you from being pushed into the expensive business of selling operating systems. Sure, operating system is not all of commercial software. But the intent is clear enough to me. I have seen no indication that the intent will remain confined to "commercial operating system software". -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 18:11:37 2000 Received: from deliverator.sgi.com (deliverator.sgi.com [204.94.214.10]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F4C38153 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:11:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (fddi-nodin.corp.sgi.com [198.29.75.193]) by deliverator.sgi.com (980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id SAA16076; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:06:55 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA06170; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id HAA45763; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:40:31 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA29946; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:40:41 +0530 (IST) From: Raj Mathur Message-ID: <14524.31777.286110.130938@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:40:41 +0530 (IST) To: Suresh Ramasubramanian Cc: Arun Sharma , LI General Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin In-Reply-To: <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200002/47 >>>>> "Suresh" == Suresh Ramasubramanian writes: Suresh> [snip] Suresh> On this topic - the Cobalt RAQ and Qube boxen use a rather Suresh> old version of linux (equivalent to redhat 5.1 and 5.2), Suresh> customized with a kewl web based admin panel but otherwise Suresh> full of holes as a swiss cheese. Suresh> However, Cobalt (IIRC) says that you must download ONLY Suresh> their patches (sendmail, bind etc etc), and are prohibited Suresh> from upgrading your firmware. You do something on your Suresh> own (say compiling a new version of sendmail / kernel) and Suresh> your warranty is voided. Suresh> ~How~ do they take GPL'd stuff and lock it into Suresh> restrictions like this? Besides, their versions are so Suresh> antiquated, they still ship boxen with 2.0.x kernels and Suresh> 8.8.8 sendmail (that being their latest set of "patches"). Sure. The GPL doesn't prohibit you from giving any sort of warranty under your own terms and conditions. Note that Cobalt doesn't prohibit you from changing the firmware on your own, it just says that you're on your own if you do it. Any computer manufacturer will tell you the same if you install your own hardware into his computer too. Regards, -- Raju From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 18:21:50 2000 Received: from deliverator.sgi.com (deliverator.sgi.com [204.94.214.10]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59CC63815C for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (fddi-nodin.corp.sgi.com [198.29.75.193]) by deliverator.sgi.com (980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id SAA17037; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:17:08 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA16371; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id HAA41215; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:50:46 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA00065; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:50:57 +0530 (IST) From: Raj Mathur Message-ID: <14524.32392.921581.247237@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:50:56 +0530 (IST) To: Arun Sharma Cc: LI General Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin In-Reply-To: <20000229103219.A27951@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com> <20000229103219.A27951@sharmas.dhs.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200002/48 >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> [snip] Arun> I never called GPL brain dead or RMS an evil person. I've Arun> always maintained that GPL is impractical and a hinderance Arun> to progress. Heh, as we all know, Linux isn't the fastest-growing server OS shipped in 1999 and no one uses GNU CC or Emacs :-) *BSD OTOH has been making waves with its wide acceptance in the corporate world and announced support base from companies like IBM and SGI. ``Impractical and a hinderance to progress''! Try looking around you sometime, Arun. If you or some people on the web prefer the BSD license, please go ahead and use it. Don't try to use FUD to debunk the GPL -- you'll lose. -- Raju From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 18:32:07 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F293815C for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA29227 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:31:58 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:31:58 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229183158.A29065@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <87u2irhk9k.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87u2irhk9k.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 01:38:15PM -0600 X-Archive-Number: 200002/49 On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 01:38:15PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > Arun> Well said. I'm arguing that GPL, GNU ideals = communism, an > Arun> extreme and that we should find the middle ground and that > Arun> middle ground is the BSD license. > > Thisis yor opinion, and I beg to differ. My take is that the > *BSD licence suits people whose sole concern is self aggrandizement: > their only concern is that their name is on the software; and they > have no concerns about community, or what happens to their software. Their (BSD) main concern is software. Not politics. I note that BSD license doesn't exclude building the community and meeting many of the same goals of the GNU project. The rest of the statements about ulterior motives and self aggrandizement, gullible coders etc is the fantasy of a fertile mind, IMO. Selling software is not a crime, nor is it exploitation. No one needs protection. Get over it. And think about: http://quote.yahoo.com/q?s=RHAT&d=1y and what happens when the Linux hype subsides. How are you going to get your video/network/modem card to work ? Are you going to get support from your cable modem/DSL company ? Or you're left writing these "Please support Linux" letters ? -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 18:43:33 2000 Received: from hd2.dot.net.in (hd2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.30.2]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0821438164 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:43:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from frodo.kcircle.com (root@[203.197.21.38]) by hd2.dot.net.in (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22645; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:12:17 +0530 (IST) Received: (from r.suresh@localhost) by frodo.kcircle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00639; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:16:09 +0530 X-Authentication-Warning: frodo.kcircle.com: r.suresh set sender to r.suresh@mailandnews.com using -f Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:16:09 +0530 From: Suresh Ramasubramanian To: Raj Mathur Cc: LI General Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000301081609.B630@kcircle.com> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com> <14524.31777.286110.130938@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.4i In-Reply-To: <14524.31777.286110.130938@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from raju@sgi.com on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 07:40:41AM +0530 Organization: CAUCE India X-Archive-Number: 200002/50 Thus spake Raj Mathur: >you're on your own if you do it. Any computer manufacturer will tell >you the same if you install your own hardware into his computer too. Hardware ok. I haven't seen anyone whose warranty was invalidated because he upgraded (say) Mutt on his box, or recompiled his kernel. Cobalt does that. -- Suresh Ramasubramanian | President, CAUCE India r.suresh@mailandnews.com | suresh@india.cauce.org http://www.india.cauce.org | Stopping Spam In India -- Vitamin C deficiency is apauling. From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 18:56:05 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D1F338164 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA29299 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:55:57 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:55:56 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: LI General Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229185556.A29241@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com> <20000229103219.A27951@sharmas.dhs.org> <14524.32392.921581.247237@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <14524.32392.921581.247237@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from Raj Mathur on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 07:50:56AM +0530 X-Archive-Number: 200002/51 On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 07:50:56AM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: > >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: > > Arun> [snip] > Arun> I never called GPL brain dead or RMS an evil person. I've > Arun> always maintained that GPL is impractical and a hinderance > Arun> to progress. > > Heh, as we all know, Linux isn't the fastest-growing server OS shipped > in 1999 and no one uses GNU CC or Emacs :-) *BSD OTOH has been making > waves with its wide acceptance in the corporate world and announced > support base from companies like IBM and SGI. ``Impractical and a > hinderance to progress''! I don't accept that argument. Windows would be superior to both Linux and BSD going by that criterion. IBM and SGI would do, by definition, what suits their share holder's interests - which is making more money. > Try looking around you sometime, Arun. If you or some people on the > web prefer the BSD license, please go ahead and use it. Don't try to > use FUD to debunk the GPL -- you'll lose. Calling something FUD comes easy. I have presented rational arguments on why BSD license should be used. It's not so much directed at converting you or Manoj. It is aimed at convincing other readers of the list/archive, who will be writing free software. Note that I have not argued that everything that *BSD did is right. There were a lot of wrongs done, which Linux corrected. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 19:32:11 2000 Received: from hd2.dot.net.in (hd2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.30.2]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FCD38164 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from frodo.kcircle.com (root@[203.197.20.54]) by hd2.dot.net.in (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23163; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:00:59 +0530 (IST) Received: (from r.suresh@localhost) by frodo.kcircle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00694; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:59:11 +0530 X-Authentication-Warning: frodo.kcircle.com: r.suresh set sender to r.suresh@mailandnews.com using -f Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:59:11 +0530 From: Suresh Ramasubramanian To: Arun Sharma Cc: LI General Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000301085911.C667@kcircle.com> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com> <20000229103219.A27951@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.4i In-Reply-To: <20000229103219.A27951@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 10:32:19AM -0800 Organization: CAUCE India X-Archive-Number: 200002/52 Thus spake Arun Sharma: >If you think Cobalt is broken, don't use them. There is no cause and >effect relationship between BSD license and Cobalt behavior. No, but their license is a bit restrictive, is all I said. Even upgrading software on their boxen invalidates your entire warranty. I don't use 'em, but my (soon to be) boss uses 'em extensively :( >> Suppose I have some skill which I make available free to others - if >> others say "Suresh is kewl at that" (GPL) then ok. If ~I~ say "I'm the Let me spell it out. GPL - You don't stand on your rights and give away your code to others, as long as others redistribute all their changes under the GPL as well. Mutt is GPL'd - but nobody forgets that Mike Elkins is the original author. Lots of Mutt patches have been posted on LI. >> best and I'll help you if you acknowledge that I'm the best when >> you start helping others ..." (BSD) - that's not so kewl. BSD - 1. I write some software and distribute it under the BSD license 2. Someone patches it - he's ~forced~ to explicitly acknowledge me as the author, and so on down the line ..... When I said "mixing / interfacing" I don't mean locking GPL'd code into BSD programs, which then implies claiming credit for the ~whole~ thing. This incompatible mindset is what makes most projects stick to one license - either GPL or BSD. I meant it in the term of "using them together, making them work together" - respecting each license. Not taking somebody's GPL'd code, patching it into BSD software and then locking it down under your name. -- Suresh Ramasubramanian | President, CAUCE India r.suresh@mailandnews.com | suresh@india.cauce.org http://www.india.cauce.org | Stopping Spam In India -- A programming language is low level when its programs require attention to the irrelevant. From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 21:33:53 2000 Received: from deliverator.sgi.com (deliverator.sgi.com [204.94.214.10]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D9138053 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:33:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (fddi-nodin.corp.sgi.com [198.29.75.193]) by deliverator.sgi.com (980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id VAA00841; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:29:09 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id VAA73001; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:33:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA39667; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:03:03 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA01924; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:03:04 +0530 (IST) From: Raj Mathur Message-ID: <14524.43919.437468.559040@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:03:03 +0530 (IST) To: Arun Sharma Cc: LI General Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin In-Reply-To: <20000229185556.A29241@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com> <20000229103219.A27951@sharmas.dhs.org> <14524.32392.921581.247237@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <20000229185556.A29241@sharmas.dhs.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200002/53 >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 07:50:56AM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: >> >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: >> Arun> [snip] I never called GPL brain dead or RMS an evil Arun> person. I've always maintained that GPL is impractical and a Arun> hinderance to progress. >> Heh, as we all know, Linux isn't the fastest-growing server OS >> shipped in 1999 and no one uses GNU CC or Emacs :-) *BSD OTOH >> has been making waves with its wide acceptance in the corporate >> world and announced support base from companies like IBM and >> SGI. ``Impractical and a hinderance to progress''! Arun> I don't accept that argument. Windows would be superior to Arun> both Linux and BSD going by that criterion. IBM and SGI Arun> would do, by definition, what suits their share holder's Arun> interests - which is making more money. I doubt if a technology which is impractical and a hindrance to progress would be adopted by both large corporations and individuals to help them achieve their goals. I call your use of that phrase FUD. While you're right in stating that calling something FUD is easy, it's also easy to label technologies and movements with any adjectives of your choice, even if the rest of the world seems to be seeing something different. MS succeeded because of two reasons: lack of choice and heavy, sometimes unethical marketing. GNU is all about choice and has close to zero marketing, none of which is unethical. I completely fail to see either a relationship between the two or the relevance of your phrase to a project which has succeeded wildly. Regards, -- Raju >> Try looking around you sometime, Arun. If you or some people >> on the web prefer the BSD license, please go ahead and use it. >> Don't try to use FUD to debunk the GPL -- you'll lose. Arun> Calling something FUD comes easy. I have presented rational Arun> arguments on why BSD license should be used. It's not so Arun> much directed at converting you or Manoj. It is aimed at Arun> convincing other readers of the list/archive, who will be Arun> writing free software. Arun> Note that I have not argued that everything that *BSD did is Arun> right. There were a lot of wrongs done, which Linux Arun> corrected. From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 21:54:04 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3663809B for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA27952; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:47:16 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Tue Feb 29 23:47:12 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <14523.58129.403777.564157@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <20000229085129.A27566@sharmas.dhs.org> <87putfhjna.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000229170139.A28566@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 29 Feb 2000 23:47:15 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:01:39 -0800" Message-ID: <87hferfdi4.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 57 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/54 >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 01:51:37PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: >> >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: >> Arun> Then you stop using Apache, Perl, TCP/IP, PPP, Adaptec cards in Linux Arun> and Microsoft windows because they don't use the GNU license. Note the use of the word you. Since no one here speaks for the GNU project, I assumed you were referring to the pro-GPL people, in other words, people like me. >> >> This is highly illogical. You said you had a problem with the GNU >> philosophy. We never said we had a problem using DFSG code.. And >> our philosophy is what determines the licence I issue my code >> under. Arun> GNU project does have a problem with the BSD license. Read Arun> RMS's article on this on gnu.org. And BSD license is DFSG Arun> compliant. I don't speak for the GNU project -- hell, I don't even speak for Debian. I do speak as a gnu proponent. And Debian, with all our predeliction for the GPL, have pronounced the BSD licence DFSG free. If indeed you are trying to open a dialog with the GNU project, this is entirely the wrong forum. >> I like that. I hate people making money off other peoples work. Arun> Your ideas are based on hatred. That's the problem. Yeah right. Beautful logic -- Ihate pedophiles, so all my thoughts on children are based on hate? Where did you learn logic from? Strong dissaproval of (incidentally, that is the colloquial substance of the phrase used) of people who tend to make money off other peoples work does not mean that my support is based on hate -- in fact, my support of the GPL is basesd on entirely amicable feelings of community. Arun> Ever tried using gcc on Alpha ? Actually, yes. How do you think Debian-alpha compiles stuff? And I used gcc all the time on Ultrix and Digital UNIX machines to compile Emacs == worked great. Your point? manoj -- The goal of Computer Science is to build something that will last at least until we've finished building it. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 22:04:04 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A243809B for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA28239; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:59:19 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Tue Feb 29 23:59:16 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <87u2irhk9k.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000229183158.A29065@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 29 Feb 2000 23:59:17 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:31:58 -0800" Message-ID: <87d7pffcy2.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 69 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/55 >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> Their (BSD) main concern is software. Really? If I were as uncharitale as you, I woul say their main concern is ego -- and certainly find justification on the mailinglists. However, I don't want to stoop to those levels. All I am going to say is that community is certainly not one of the strong motivations for them. Arun> Not politics. What politics? Did you see me preach about republicans? Or democrats? Or getting anyone elected? Where do you get off calling community building politics? Politics is Theo splitting off from his ertswhile comarades. Polititcs is *NOT* my deciding licencing terms on my code. You can label anything vile, with no justification, and then denigrate it Arun> I note that BSD license doesn't exclude building the community Arun> and meeting many of the same goals of the GNU project. No, truth to tell, it doesn't. It just makes it a lot harder -- it is easier for people to make off with the software and not contribute back, which is a bummer. Enough of a buummer that the BSD people have squandered a decades early start, and are now playing catchup. Arun> The rest of the statements about ulterior motives and self Arun> aggrandizement, gullible coders etc is the fantasy of a fertile Arun> mind, IMO. Really? I wonder. Of course, if you were in it for the money (as you once confessed you are), you woudn't agree with this anyway, would you? Arun> Selling software is not a crime, nor is it exploitation. No one needs Arun> protection. Get over it. I beg to differ. I have a BSD derived box it costs thousands of dollars to upgrade -- and I am at the mercy of the people sho took the open source coide, branded and closed it, for bug fixes -- obviously I do not have access to the source code. Hell, I need something that protects *my* code and users from such a thing. *You* may not freelk the need for protection. But you can't tel;l me, and people like me, that we do not need protection -- espescial;l;y with your public sentiments about monetary motivations. Arun> And think about: http://quote.yahoo.com/q?s=RHAT&d=1y and what Arun> happens when the Linux hype subsides. How are you going to get Arun> your video/network/modem card to work ? Are you going to get Arun> support from your cable modem/DSL company ? Or you're left Arun> writing these "Please support Linux" letters ? Just liek we got things to work when there _was_ no Linux hype. I have been using Linux since late '93 -- when the BSD's were supposedly more hip. manoj -- Matrimony isn't a word, it's a sentence. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 22:14:05 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EF1B38054 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:13:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id AAA28509; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:08:57 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Wed Mar 1 00:08:57 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin References: <002901bf82be$b6c7ae80$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000229091853.A27635@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229103710.B27951@sharmas.dhs.org> <87d7pfhihu.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000229175323.A28878@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 01 Mar 2000 00:08:57 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:53:23 -0800" Message-ID: <874sarfchy.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 34 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/56 >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> GNU ideology explicitly advocates destroying commercial software. This Arun> is where the hypocrisy comes in. >> Arun> Just found something more specific: Arun> http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-history.html quote> Arun> How far can free software go? There are no limits, except when laws such Arun> as the patent system prohibit free software entirely. The ultimate goal Arun> is to provide free software to do all of the jobs computer users want Arun> to do--and thus make proprietary software obsolete. >> /quote> So competing better than something is destroying it? This is rational? So I make a better paper clip, I am going out and destroying the other paper clips? You have any idea how weak that sounds? The GNU philosophy is to make software so much better than closed source software that no one shall feel like paying them for an inferior product. People shall get paid for the labout they put in -- and not by hoarding code, often thelabour of others. manoj -- I never met a piece of chocolate I didn't like. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 22:14:11 2000 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7983809B for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id AAA28436; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:05:37 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.5.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Wed Mar 1 00:05:36 2000 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin References: <002901bf82be$b6c7ae80$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000229091853.A27635@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229103710.B27951@sharmas.dhs.org> <87d7pfhihu.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000229173428.B28566@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 01 Mar 2000 00:05:36 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:34:28 -0800" Message-ID: <879003fcnj.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 63 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Archive-Number: 200002/57 >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> "Why software should not have owners" below: Arun> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html Arun> If software can not have owners, commercial software can not exist. In Arun> other words, commercial software gets destroyed. That is a stated goal. You do havre a problem with logic. Because we think that all software should be open does not mean we go around destroying commercial software. We just create a better alternative. (Guess what SCO is doing now?) >> From the GNU Manifesto: quote> Arun> "My company needs a proprietary operating system to get a Arun> competitive edge." Arun> GNU will remove operating system software from the realm of Arun> competition. You will not be able to get an edge in this area, but Arun> neither will your competitors be able to get an edge over you. You and Arun> they will compete in other areas, while benefiting mutually in this Arun> one. If your business is selling an operating system, you will not Arun> like GNU, but that's tough on you. If your business is something else, Arun> GNU can save you from being pushed into the expensive business of Arun> selling operating systems >> /quote> Arun> Sure, operating system is not all of commercial software. But the intent Arun> is clear enough to me. I have seen no indication that the intent will Arun> remain confined to "commercial operating system software". Hell, why do you think we are making Linux a great OS? Is it not hurting UNIX and other commercial OS's? What would you rather we do? Not make Linux any better, so that people can retain their comeptitive advantage? Jesus, that's stupid. Look, if GNU software is so much better that commercial software can't compete, you loose the commercial edge. Am I shedding buckets of tears becaus windows is not as competitive as it used to be? Am I shedding tears because a low end server OS is rapidly getting to be free software? Am I crying that apache has made commercial advantage a joke? Bah. Only the people who wanted to hoard software and make money off it need be scared -- for free software is something they do not understand, and thus rightly fear. manoj -- "Well, now, hold onta yer horses, there, Frazier. I mean, as a psychiatrist, isn't it your job to, uh, `seek and uphold the truth'?" "Oh, get real, Cliff." Cheers Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 22:31:48 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605083809B for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:31:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA29688 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:31:38 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:31:38 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: LI General Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229223138.A29637@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com> <20000229103219.A27951@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000301085911.C667@kcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <20000301085911.C667@kcircle.com>; from Suresh Ramasubramanian on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 08:59:11AM +0530 X-Archive-Number: 200002/58 On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 08:59:11AM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > >> Suppose I have some skill which I make available free to others - if > >> others say "Suresh is kewl at that" (GPL) then ok. If ~I~ say "I'm the > > Let me spell it out. GPL - You don't stand on your rights and give away > your code to others, as long as others redistribute all their changes > under the GPL as well. That's true of BSD license too. You don't stand on your rights and give away your code to others - others can redistribute it under any license including GPL. I can not do the same with GPL. Thus BSD is less restrictive than GPL. Even RMS acknowledges this. He just claims that his restrictions have a noble intention. > BSD - > > 1. I write some software and distribute it under the BSD license > > 2. Someone patches it - he's ~forced~ to explicitly acknowledge me as the > author, and so on down the line ..... > #2 above is no longer true. The clause has been removed from the BSD license. But you still need to carry the copyright statement. That's true for both BSD and GPL. > When I said "mixing / interfacing" I don't mean locking GPL'd code into > BSD programs, which then implies claiming credit for the ~whole~ > thing. This incompatible mindset is what makes most projects stick to one > license - either GPL or BSD. 1. BSD + GPL = GPL 2. GPL + X = GPL, for all values of X If 2 is not true, 2 must be illegal. > > I meant it in the term of "using them together, making them work > together" - respecting each license. Not taking somebody's GPL'd code, > patching it into BSD software and then locking it down under your name. You seem to have a misconception here. Publishing code under GPL doesn't mean people can ignore your copyright or not acknowledge your work and claim the work as their own. Read the last couple of paragraphs of GPL again. Stripping ofF other people's copyright is considered extremely rude universally. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 22:46:23 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 164EF3809C for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA29716 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:46:15 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:46:15 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: LI General Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229224614.B29637@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229232143.A899@kcircle.com> <20000229103219.A27951@sharmas.dhs.org> <14524.32392.921581.247237@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <20000229185556.A29241@sharmas.dhs.org> <14524.43919.437468.559040@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <14524.43919.437468.559040@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from Raj Mathur on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:03:03AM +0530 X-Archive-Number: 200002/59 On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:03:03AM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: > Arun> I don't accept that argument. Windows would be superior to > Arun> both Linux and BSD going by that criterion. IBM and SGI > Arun> would do, by definition, what suits their share holder's > Arun> interests - which is making more money. > > I doubt if a technology which is impractical and a hindrance to > progress would be adopted by both large corporations and individuals > to help them achieve their goals. The technology is not the issue. The technology came from 1970s in Bell labs and later from Berkeley. Linux is just a reimplementation of the above technology. IBM already has that technology. So does SGI. They have made their money using that technology during their heydays. In IBM's case, they need to keep MS out of the server market. In SGI's case, it's the straw they're trying to hang on to on a sinking ship. So it serves them to promote Linux. Quite a few people who work with me are former SGI employees who got laid off. The (Silicon) valley is full of them. In other words, the choice (that IBM and SGI made) has nothing to do with technology. It has everything to do with market acceptance. That said, Linux has had better market acceptance than *BSD. But that's due to completely different reasons. License was not one of them. I don't quite agree that market has rejected the BSD license. Apache, X, python, perl, sendmail, BIND, TCP/IP are all living examples of BSD license's (or licenses similar in spirit) success. TCP/IP in particular stands out as a success. Part of the reason for it's acceptance was a high quality, readily available implmentation that could be incorporated into a commercial product. Who knows, the internet could be running NetBUI if the GNU project started a few years early :) -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 23:08:31 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F8E380A1 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:08:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29808 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:08:20 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:08:20 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229230820.A29784@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <14523.58129.403777.564157@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <20000229085129.A27566@sharmas.dhs.org> <87putfhjna.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000229170139.A28566@sharmas.dhs.org> <87hferfdi4.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87hferfdi4.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 11:47:15PM -0600 X-Archive-Number: 200002/60 On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 11:47:15PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > Arun> GNU project does have a problem with the BSD license. Read > Arun> RMS's article on this on gnu.org. And BSD license is DFSG > Arun> compliant. > > I don't speak for the GNU project -- hell, I don't even speak > for Debian. I do speak as a gnu proponent. And Debian, with all our > predeliction for the GPL, have pronounced the BSD licence DFSG free. > > If indeed you are trying to open a dialog with the GNU > project, this is entirely the wrong forum. Ok. In other words you don't agree with all of the GNU stuff and don't have a problem with the BSD license ? > >> I like that. I hate people making money off other peoples work. > > Arun> Your ideas are based on hatred. That's the problem. > > Yeah right. Beautful logic -- Ihate pedophiles, so all my > thoughts on children are based on hate? Where did you learn logic > from? Strong dissaproval of (incidentally, that is the colloquial > substance of the phrase used) of people who tend to make money off > other peoples work does not mean that my support is based on hate -- > in fact, my support of the GPL is basesd on entirely amicable > feelings of community. Inappropriate comparision. Paedophiles cause harm to children. Selling software doesn't cause harm to anyone. > > Arun> Ever tried using gcc on Alpha ? > > Actually, yes. How do you think Debian-alpha compiles stuff? > And I used gcc all the time on Ultrix and Digital UNIX machines to > compile Emacs == worked great. > > Your point? There exists a compiler called the Compaq C compiler. There also exists a benchmark called SPECint95. Also, compiling Linux using a non gcc compiler is a significant pain, which I experienced personally when I tried to compile it for IA-64 using the Intel compiler. There is a paper on this that someone wrote on the Intel technical journal - look for it on the web. The results are far from optimal. Bottomline: gcc is not the most optimizing compiler on earth. And compiler independent code has some value. Linux sucks in this area. Again, an example of how exclusivity results in a suboptimal result to the end user. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 23:25:48 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333E6380A5 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29841 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:25:40 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:25:40 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229232540.B29784@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <004b01bf828d$292d56a0$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000228224408.A26168@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229124954.A861@kcircle.com> <20000228235208.A26424@sharmas.dhs.org> <87u2irhk9k.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000229183158.A29065@sharmas.dhs.org> <87d7pffcy2.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87d7pffcy2.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 11:59:17PM -0600 X-Archive-Number: 200002/61 On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 11:59:17PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: > > Arun> Their (BSD) main concern is software. > > Really? If I were as uncharitale as you, I woul say their main > concern is ego -- and certainly find justification on the > mailinglists. However, I don't want to stoop to those levels. You're entitled to your opinions. As you don't speak for the GNU project, I don't speak for any of the *BSD projects and the personality flaws of the people associated with it. I just air my opinions about why BSD license is a great thing. > Really? I wonder. Of course, if you were in it for the money > (as you once confessed you are), you woudn't agree with this anyway, > would you? That is just a lie. You apologied for lying the last time around. > > Arun> Selling software is not a crime, nor is it exploitation. No one needs > Arun> protection. Get over it. > > I beg to differ. I have a BSD derived box it costs thousands > of dollars to upgrade -- and I am at the mercy of the people sho took > the open source coide, branded and closed it, for bug fixes -- > obviously I do not have access to the source code. The relevance of the commercial BSD software is self evident. If it was that inferior, you'd just throw it away and replace it with Linux wouldn't you ? You're using it because it has some value. Or someone who is paying you thinks it has some value. Commercial software can not exist for sentimental reasons. > Arun> And think about: http://quote.yahoo.com/q?s=RHAT&d=1y and what > Arun> happens when the Linux hype subsides. How are you going to get > Arun> your video/network/modem card to work ? Are you going to get > Arun> support from your cable modem/DSL company ? Or you're left > Arun> writing these "Please support Linux" letters ? > > Just liek we got things to work when there _was_ no Linux > hype. I have been using Linux since late '93 -- when the BSD's were > supposedly more hip. In other words, replace the network card, modem, video cards with the ones supported by Linux, rather than the best cards available in the market. Of course, 3-4 years down the road, when the concept is old enough, the hardware manufacturer will release the specs and someone will write a GPL'ed driver for it. Do you remember how old is AGP ? This is not just a temporary problem that's going to go away once Linux kills MS. It's more fundamental than that. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 23:29:43 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2749838052 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:29:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29859 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:29:36 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:29:36 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229232936.C29784@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <002901bf82be$b6c7ae80$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000229091853.A27635@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229103710.B27951@sharmas.dhs.org> <87d7pfhihu.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000229173428.B28566@sharmas.dhs.org> <879003fcnj.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <879003fcnj.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 12:05:36AM -0600 X-Archive-Number: 200002/62 On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 12:05:36AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > You do havre a problem with logic. Because we think that all > software should be open does not mean we go around destroying > commercial software. We just create a better alternative. (Guess what > SCO is doing now?) SCO is trying to make money by investing in Linux hype. It is also working on Monterey 64 - something that GNU project is offended by. Also, something that is perfectly fine for people with the BSD mindset. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 23:36:28 2000 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3529C38087 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:36:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29886 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:36:19 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:36:19 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin Message-ID: <20000229233619.D29784@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <002901bf82be$b6c7ae80$0101a8c0@outsider.sanisoft> <20000229091853.A27635@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000229103710.B27951@sharmas.dhs.org> <87d7pfhihu.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <20000229175323.A28878@sharmas.dhs.org> <874sarfchy.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <874sarfchy.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 12:08:57AM -0600 X-Archive-Number: 200002/63 On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 12:08:57AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > > So competing better than something is destroying it? This is > rational? So I make a better paper clip, I am going out and > destroying the other paper clips? > I have not seen any empirical evidence that GNU ever made a better paper clip. It's just a reinvention of the existing paper clip. They're claiming that the people who made the first paper clip didn't give it to me for free. Therefore they commited an offense. I'm going to make my own paper clip and give it away to everyone. I'll also make sure that I'll make all the people who make paper clips obsolete by making great free paper clips. -Arun From linux-india-general-owner@lists.linux-india.org Tue Feb 29 23:54:27 2000 Received: from exocore.com (d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B28D380CE for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:54:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03451 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:25:48 +0530 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:25:48 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General Subject: Re: Free software, proprietary software and Stalin In-Reply-To: <20000229232936.C29784@sharmas.dhs.org> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200002/64 Hmmmmm.... I do not see this argument going anywhere. The problem is that everyone involved in the discussion is firmly entrenched with their positions and understanding/interpretation. The fact is that GPL and BSD have been around for a while, and they each were created for a particular purpose, to address a particular situation. It is entirely possible that with the changes that take place on an almost everyday basis, both GPL and BSD are not 100% with it anymore, and need to adapt to address some market realities. Reminds me of the fish-cutting problem - it used to be bad manners to cut fish with a knife when sitting at a table - you were supposed to use two forks. It was a rule that had historical background, but was outright silly and completely non-practical in the 20th century. To work around it, people introduced the concept of "fish knives". Today, you can cut a fish any which way you want - you can use your toothpicks if you want. One thing I can guarantee you - if everyone in the GPL/BSD camps refuses to adapt, and continue to stick to absolutes, both are going to start offending enough people to make them non-feasible. If nothing else changes - at leats the people should have the courage to say "we agree to diagree". Discussions that end up in bloody noses on a mailing list are not going to change the end result. I'd rather like to see people discussing a "best of" kind of solution - one that takes the best features of each, and helps the creation of a universally acceptable solution. How about it? A theoretical "Linux India General Licence"? Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 --------------------------------------------------------