From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 2 13:15:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA29243 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:15:41 -0800 Received: from netscape.com (h-205-217-237-47.netscape.com [205.217.237.47]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA29239 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:15:38 -0800 Received: from judge.mcom.com (judge.mcom.com [205.217.237.53]) by netscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10966 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:14:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from netscape.com ([207.1.145.44]) by judge.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.03) with ESMTP id FM4TP800.R38 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:15:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3846E15B.6FAD2B1C@netscape.com> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 13:15:08 -0800 From: Sudhakar Chandrasekharan Organization: Only Available on a Need To Know Basis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: [Administrative] Welcome to the reawakened LIG mailing list.] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Folks, Welcome to the reawakened Linux India General Mailing list. After a lull in traffic and a few problems with the way I had set up LIG I finally managed to get things together. Expect to see some animated discussion about the forthcoming split of the LI lists into sublists. Thaths -- "Hey, we just got away with murder. And it was so easy. Y'know, I never liked that wiener Milhouse." -- Homer J. Simpson Sudhakar C13n http://people.netscape.com/thaths/ Lead Indentured Slave From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 2 13:28:25 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA29323 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:28:25 -0800 Received: from bom2.vsnl.net.in (bom2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.1.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA29319 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:28:22 -0800 Received: from nk ([202.54.68.152]) by bom2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA11326; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 02:57:46 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991203025216.03a8eb50@pop.netaddress.com> X-Sender: nirmalkej@pop.netaddress.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 02:53:40 +0530 To: Sudhakar Chandrasekharan , linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org From: Nirmal Kejriwal Subject: Re: [Administrative] Welcome to the reawakened LIG mailing list.] In-Reply-To: <3846E15B.6FAD2B1C@netscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Thank you Thaths, Pushing reply to, sends a reply back to the original sender rather then the list, but I am sure you will have that fixed soon. What are the proposed sub lists? Nirmal At 01:15 PM 12/2/99 -0800, you wrote: >Folks, > >Welcome to the reawakened Linux India General Mailing list. After a lull >in traffic and a few problems with the way I had set up LIG I finally >managed to get things together. Expect to see some animated discussion >about the forthcoming split of the LI lists into sublists. > >Thaths >-- > "Hey, we just got away with murder. And it was so easy. Y'know, > I never liked that wiener Milhouse." -- Homer J. Simpson >Sudhakar C13n http://people.netscape.com/thaths/ Lead Indentured Slave #+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+# ICQ # 20161432 #+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+# From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 2 13:44:25 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA29385 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:44:25 -0800 Received: from giascl01.vsnl.net.in (giascl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.9.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA29381 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:44:20 -0800 Received: from indradg.cal.vsnl.net.in (ppp102-103.pppcal.vsnl.net.in [203.197.102.103]) by giascl01.vsnl.net.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id DAA08743; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 03:15:02 +0500 (GMT+0500) Message-Id: <199912022215.DAA08743@giascl01.vsnl.net.in> From: "Indranil Das Gupta" To: "Sudhakar Chandrasekharan" , , "Nirmal Kejriwal" Subject: Re: [Administrative] Welcome to the reawakened LIG mailinglist.] Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 03:17:53 +0530 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, > From: Nirmal Kejriwal > > Pushing reply to, sends a reply back to the original sender rather then the > list, but I am sure you will have that fixed soon. It is not an error, actually header-munging is quite a controversial issue. Infact IIRC, the majordomo or associated docs are a little against the practise (I maybe wrong though), and rather promotes the use of an intelligent (as against brain-dead) MUA by the user :) > What are the proposed sub lists? What about once proposed linux-india-cabal?? (By some other name of course ;-) --Indra. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 2 14:03:17 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA29495 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:03:17 -0800 Received: from bom2.vsnl.net.in (bom2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.1.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA29491 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:03:13 -0800 Received: from nk ([202.54.68.152]) by bom2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA15036; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 03:32:53 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991203032615.03a94270@pop.netaddress.com> X-Sender: nirmalkej@pop.netaddress.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 03:28:45 +0530 To: "Indranil Das Gupta" , "Sudhakar Chandrasekharan" , From: Nirmal Kejriwal Subject: Re: [Administrative] Welcome to the reawakened LIG mailinglist.] In-Reply-To: <199912022215.DAA08743@giascl01.vsnl.net.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk At 03:17 AM 12/3/99 +0530, Indranil Das Gupta wrote: >Hi, > > > From: Nirmal Kejriwal > > > > Pushing reply to, sends a reply back to the original sender rather then > the > > list, but I am sure you will have that fixed soon. > >It is not an error, actually header-munging is quite a controversial >issue. Infact IIRC, the majordomo or associated >docs are a little against the practise (I maybe wrong though), and rather >promotes the use of an intelligent (as >against brain-dead) MUA by the user :) Dunno, in a message from the main list when I push reply, the message goes back to the list and not to the sender. But hey what the heck, whatever works. Nirmal #+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+# ICQ # 20161432 #+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+# From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 2 14:13:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA29534 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:13:37 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA29530 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:13:30 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id QAA25567; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:04:29 -0600 X-Time: Thu Dec 2 16:04:28 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [Administrative] Welcome to the reawakened LIG mailing list.] References: <4.2.0.58.19991203025216.03a8eb50@pop.netaddress.com> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 02 Dec 1999 16:04:28 -0600 In-Reply-To: Nirmal Kejriwal's message of "Fri, 03 Dec 1999 02:53:40 +0530" Message-ID: <87ln7datjn.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>"Nirmal" == Nirmal Kejriwal writes: Nirmal> Pushing reply to, sends a reply back to the original sender Nirmal> rather then the list, but I am sure you will have that fixed Nirmal> soon. This is expected behaviour. If you want to reply to the whole list most mail/news user agents provide a ``follow up'' command (as I did). manoj wondering if posting works -- Biz is better. Manoj Srivastava Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 2 16:41:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id QAA30134 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:41:22 -0800 Received: from netscape.com (h-205-217-237-47.netscape.com [205.217.237.47]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id QAA30130 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:41:20 -0800 Received: from judge.mcom.com (judge.mcom.com [205.217.237.53]) by netscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18849 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from netscape.com ([207.1.145.44]) by judge.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.03) with ESMTP id FM537Y00.8PR for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:40:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3847118D.58D40D97@netscape.com> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:40:45 -0800 From: Sudhakar Chandrasekharan Organization: Only Available on a Need To Know Basis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [Administrative] Welcome to the reawakened LIG mailing list.] References: <4.2.0.58.19991203025216.03a8eb50@pop.netaddress.com> <87ln7datjn.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Manoj Srivastava proclaimed: > This is expected behaviour. If you want to reply to the whole > list most mail/news user agents provide a ``follow up'' command (as I > did). And -general being a mailing list that is for the more experienced users I am going to keep it this way. Thaths PS: Stay tuned for later today when we can begin discussing the LI split that I am planning to do during Christmas. -- "Hey, we just got away with murder. And it was so easy. Y'know, I never liked that wiener Milhouse." -- Homer J. Simpson Sudhakar C13n http://people.netscape.com/thaths/ Lead Indentured Slave From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 2 20:22:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA31538 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:22:40 -0800 Received: from ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (ausmtp02.au.ibm.COM [202.135.136.105]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA31534 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:22:31 -0800 From: skhader@in.ibm.com Received: from f03n07e.au.ibm.com by ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (IBM AP 1.0) with ESMTP id PAA48986 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:14:23 +1100 Received: from d73mta05.au.ibm.com (f06n05s [9.185.166.67]) by f03n07e.au.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA40024 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:22:17 +1100 Received: by d73mta05.au.ibm.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id CA25683C.001801BA ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:22:13 +1100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMIN@IBMAU To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:51:57 +0530 Subject: Re: [Administrative] Welcome to the reawakened LIG mailinglist.] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk linux-india-cabal ??? wazzat ?? Khader "Indranil Das Gupta" on 12/03/99 03:17:53 AM What about once proposed linux-india-cabal?? (By some other name of course ;-) From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 2 20:27:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA31624 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:27:59 -0800 Received: from ausmtp01.au.ibm.com (ausmtp01.au.ibm.COM [202.135.136.97]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA31620 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:27:49 -0800 From: skhader@in.ibm.com Received: from f03n05e.au.ibm.com by ausmtp01.au.ibm.com (IBM AP 1.0) with ESMTP id PAA18172 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:18:06 +1100 Received: from d73mta05.au.ibm.com (f06n05s [9.185.166.67]) by f03n05e.au.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA32558 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:27:43 +1100 Received: by d73mta05.au.ibm.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id CA25683C.00187F9C ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:27:35 +1100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMIN@IBMAU To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:57:19 +0530 Subject: Re: [Administrative] Welcome to the reawakened LIG mailing list.] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Well, that's how almost most of the mailing lists I have seens work like the linux-kernel mailing list and the best thing about the linux-kernel mailing list is that anyone can post to the list without subscribing and getting 300/400 mails per day and that works because linux-kernel mailing list is a very high profile one and spammers cannnot risk spamming lkml. But on linux-india, we cannot risk every tom,dick and harry posting some irrelevant crap onto the list. Am I right ?? That is the reason why only subscribers can post ! Regards Khader Manoj Srivastava on 12/03/99 03:34:28 AM Nirmal> Pushing reply to, sends a reply back to the original sender Nirmal> rather then the list, but I am sure you will have that fixed Nirmal> soon. This is expected behaviour. If you want to reply to the whole list most mail/news user agents provide a ``follow up'' command (as I did). From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 2 21:15:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA00597 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:15:41 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id VAA00593 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:15:34 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01618 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:44:59 +0530 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:22:29 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: LI traffic and a proposal Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk All: This past one month has been a tremendous one for Linux India, and it is being reflected in the LI mailing list - in 30 days, we had 3000 messages, averaging exactly 100 messages a day. It has also become painfully apparent that the list is going out of control. The Signal to Noise Ratio is dropping seriously. People are complaining about overflowing mailboxes with little content. In the past, we have attempted to split LI's list into more focussed ones, but this attempt failed for an obvious reason - as long as one could post to the main LI list, people saw little reason to post elsewhere. I therefore have the following proposal: 1. Make the main LI list a read-only announcement-only list, used for posting LI organisational news, briefs, FAQs, summaries, etc. 2. Create several new lists, making sure that the names are descriptive enough to ensure that people post to the right list. Suggestions are linux-india-technical, linux-india-business, linux-india-advocacy, etc. 3. Bring the "other" lists (such as linux-india-programming) into the fold of lists.linux-india.org. Now before you dismiss the idea outright, consider the following: - LI has grown in size and stature, and is no longer just a mailing list. - More and more corporates are paying attention to LI because of Linux's growth in importance. - A confused bunch of messages with a bad SNR is going to put off more and more people. - It is important that people find answers quickly and know where to find them. - Our listadmin Thaths is going to commit harakiri at some point... ;-) There are lots of other good reasons I can think of, but let's first of all hear what the others have to say. One request - treat this seriously. In the past, I have seen several proposals being shot down with a quick, off-the-hip, flippant reply, possibly meant to sound funny, but effectively killing the proposal. Before you aim your flame-throwers at me, think about what's good for LI before you use "but it has always been like this, why change" logic. Keep in mind that Linux India is no longer a small little mailing list. The combined strength of linux-india and linux-india-digest is more than 800 members now, and it is growing rapidly. But apart from that, the growing stature of both Linux and Linux India has resulted in Linux India being the de facto body guiding the growth of Linux in India. The splitting and refocussing of the mailing list is just one of the things we need to do. But we will discuss those later. As KD said at the end of Bangalore IT.COM - "What have we done? We turned the mailing list into an organisation!" Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 2 22:28:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA01521 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:28:33 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA01517 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:28:31 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA14770 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:28:28 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:28:28 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Message-ID: <19991202222828.A14754@sharmas.dhs.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Atul Chitnis on Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 07:22:29PM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 07:22:29PM +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote: > I therefore have the following proposal: > > 1. Make the main LI list a read-only announcement-only list, used for > posting LI organisational news, briefs, FAQs, summaries, etc. > > 2. Create several new lists, making sure that the names are descriptive > enough to ensure that people post to the right list. Suggestions are > linux-india-technical, linux-india-business, linux-india-advocacy, etc. > > 3. Bring the "other" lists (such as linux-india-programming) into the fold > of lists.linux-india.org. > Whatever you do, make sure that subscribing to the list is idiot proof. Then there is the other school of thought - if the newbie is clueless enough to screw up badly on subscribing to the right list and observing etiquette, he's not worth helping. The reason why the split didn't work very well last time around was that it was very hard to get people to subscribe to anything other than linux-india. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 07:04:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id HAA05087 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:04:30 -0800 Received: from bgl2.vsnl.net.in (bgl2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.46]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id HAA05083 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:04:25 -0800 Received: from active.vsnl.net.in (PPP-187-17.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.187.17]) by bgl2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA11708 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:25:56 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19991203203026.006a1584@202.54.12.47> X-Sender: active@202.54.12.47 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 20:30:40 +0500 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org From: Active Technologies Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk At 07:22 PM 12/1/99 +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote: >I therefore have the following proposal: > >1. Make the main LI list a read-only announcement-only list, used for > posting LI organisational news, briefs, FAQs, summaries, etc. Instead of posting the entire content on the announcement in the mail, it would be preferable to have just a small one liner description and a url to each of the announcement on the Linux-India.org site. That way users can choose to read what is relevant to one's interest. >2. Create several new lists, making sure that the names are descriptive > enough to ensure that people post to the right list. Suggestions are > linux-india-technical, linux-india-business, linux-india-advocacy, etc. >3. Bring the "other" lists (such as linux-india-programming) into the fold > of lists.linux-india.org. Somehow we need to automate the list(s) as much as possible. Can the list robot be programmed to scan predetermined subject 'keywords' ....like SiS6215, kppp, ;-) ....and redirect mail to the appropriate list(s). The keywords can be made available on linux-india webpage. Stay cool ! Sabir From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 08:10:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id IAA05623 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:10:27 -0800 Received: from giascl01.vsnl.net.in (giascl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.9.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA05619 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:10:21 -0800 Received: from indradg.cal.vsnl.net.in (ppp116-106.pppcal.vsnl.net.in [203.197.116.106]) by giascl01.vsnl.net.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA08562 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 21:41:18 +0500 (GMT+0500) Message-Id: <199912031641.VAA08562@giascl01.vsnl.net.in> From: "Indranil Das Gupta" To: Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 21:39:44 +0530 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk > From: Active Technologies > > Instead of posting the entire content on the announcement in the mail, it > would be preferable to have just a small one liner description and a url to > each of the announcement on the Linux-India.org site. Not a particularly good idea, since not everyone on LI has web-access....I know of quite a few ppl who only has access to email from office. Anyway announcements are hardly going to run into pages of text :-) > Somehow we need to automate the list(s) as much as possible. Can the list > robot be programmed to scan predetermined subject 'keywords' ....like > SiS6215, kppp, ;-) ....and redirect mail to the appropriate list(s). The > keywords can be made available on linux-india webpage. May I suggest something more like having a posting policy which requires the poster to prefix the subject line with a certain key-word....eg.... [INSTALL] dealing with install issues. [VIDEO] for video h/w setup/trouble-shooting, [SAMBA] Specific Samba related stuff [EMUL] emulators, VMWARE, Bochs et al. [X SETUP] installation, fine-tuning, upgrading. [INET] Internet related stuff --> mail servers, dns, dialup connectivity -- POTS, ISDN etc. or "I can't browse" [NW] Networking related [LINHCL] Linux HCL, questions like does this/that card work? will that cd-writer/ISDN router/printer work under linux?? [MISC] those that are difficult to classify into any particular category Any posting which does not carry any identifier prefix could be bounce back to the sender/list-admin. Just a suggestion..... --Indra. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 08:23:49 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id IAA05687 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:23:49 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA05683 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:23:45 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id KAA05372; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:22:36 -0600 X-Time: Fri Dec 3 10:22:34 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: Atul Chitnis Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal References: From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 03 Dec 1999 10:22:34 -0600 In-Reply-To: Atul Chitnis's message of "Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:22:29 +0530 (IST)" Message-ID: <87bt889eph.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 51 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, >>"Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: Atul> I therefore have the following proposal: Atul> 1. Make the main LI list a read-only announcement-only list, used for Atul> posting LI organisational news, briefs, FAQs, summaries, etc. That's one way to enforce the split (a trifle heavy handed, but I agree that this may well be required). Atul> 2. Create several new lists, making sure that the names are descriptive Atul> enough to ensure that people post to the right Atul> list. Suggestions are linux-india-technical, Atul> linux-india-business, linux-india-advocacy, etc. Deciding the focus and charter of the new lists is critical to the success of this. To those of you who have been through the great usenet renaming (circa '86, IIRC), that is what took the longest time. Consider: if you make the topics too narrow, and people are interested in several, or all, then the volume of mail does not really decrease -- one just has to subscribe to most mailing lists. And people cross-post to reach all the potential target audience. But I agree with Atul that this _has_ to be done. A monolithic list is fast reaching the point of failing under its own weight. We just need to determine what the interests of the list membership is (hmm, possibly a poll on what interests the members?) Speaking from the Debian mailing list experience, it does make it easier to selectively reduce ones involvement when there are a large number of lists -- one just drops the ones one is most willing to live without. Debian has achieved a distint enough split (though we did it at a lower granularity than some like) that there is only a handful of low volumew lists that everyone is subscribed to. May I suggest that there be a (possibly moderated) announce list that members have posting priviledges on to reach most of the membership? Providing that proactively cuts down on massive cross-posts a lot (I was just trying to reach everyone ....) manoj -- The wise man seeks everything in himself; the ignorant man tries to get everything from somebody else. Manoj Srivastava Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 11:25:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA07245 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:25:53 -0800 Received: from blr.vsnl.net.in (blr.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.6]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA07240 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:25:31 -0800 Received: from indica (indica@PPP-182-170.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.182.170]) by blr.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA14500 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:48:38 +0530 (IST) From: Dakshinamurthy Karra Organization: Subex Systems Ltd. To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 00:50:37 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <87bt889eph.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> In-Reply-To: <87bt889eph.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99100400572103.01427@indica> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 03 Dec 1999, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > That's one way to enforce the split (a trifle heavy handed, > but I agree that this may well be required). I believe this is the only way we can get people to move out of this list and onto the other relevant lists. > We should do a simple poll on the list before creating the new lists. If we have too many lists cross posting may become really a problem. -- KD (Trying to be alive for the millenium) From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 14:20:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA07735 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:20:05 -0800 Received: from goa1.dot.net.in (goa1.dot.net.in [202.54.17.30]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA07731 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:20:01 -0800 Received: from goanews ([202.54.17.106]) by goa1.dot.net.in (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id DAA07334 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 03:51:59 +0530 (GMT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991203121413.007c2290@202.54.17.30> X-Sender: fred@202.54.17.30 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 12:14:13 +0500 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org From: Frederick Noronha Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Atul's proposal sounds fine. It seems to me too that the list has grown far too big. It now seems to be beyond its optimum size. As a journalist not much into the technical aspects of Linux, I would be grateful if you could build up a bigger network to discuss the non-technical aspects of Linux. Incidentally, a week or so ago, had sent through a report of the launch of the ILUG(Goa) Chapter. Did it come across to you via Linux-India-General? If not please let me know and I'll repeat. FN >It has also become painfully apparent that the list is going out of >control. The Signal to Noise Ratio is dropping seriously. People are >complaining about overflowing mailboxes with little content. >In the past, we have attempted to split LI's list into more focussed ones, >but this attempt failed for an obvious reason - as long as one could post >to the main LI list, people saw little reason to post elsewhere. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 15:45:08 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA07979 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:45:08 -0800 Received: from netscape.com (h-205-217-237-46.netscape.com [205.217.237.46]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA07975 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:45:06 -0800 Received: from judge.mcom.com (judge.mcom.com [205.217.237.53]) by netscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21372 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:43:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from netscape.com ([207.1.145.44]) by judge.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.03) with ESMTP id FM6VAB00.67A for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:44:35 -0800 Message-ID: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 15:44:35 -0800 From: Sudhakar Chandrasekharan Organization: Only Available on a Need To Know Basis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Atul Chitnis proclaimed: > 1. Make the main LI list a read-only announcement-only list, used for > posting LI organisational news, briefs, FAQs, summaries, etc. Considering how the LI, LI-help split failed last time this becomes almost mandatory to do. > 2. Create several new lists, making sure that the names are descriptive > enough to ensure that people post to the right list. Suggestions are > linux-india-technical, linux-india-business, linux-india-advocacy, etc. I have given some thoughts to this and here are the ones I can think of: LI Announce only moderated list. aka LI-announce. Posts to this list will be go out to everyone in all the lists (care will be taken to send one email per address). Posts will be heavily moderated and only absolutely essential ones will be sent through to the lists. LI-advocacy List for advocating Linux in India. Press people like Fredrick, the PCQ editors etc. would probably want to subscribe only to this. aka LI-press LI-install Installation woes LI-setup Configuration of various pieces of software. LI-X Questions about installing and configuring Xfree86 and SiS cards. LI-networking Network configuration, PPP, VSNL etc. LI-programmers Move the egroups.com list to lists.linux-india.org LI-misc Anything that does not fall under any other category. LI-admins A controversial closed list. A forum for coordinating between coordinators of the various regional ILUGs and other friends of Linux in India. LI-jobs A mailing list to look for and post job openings. Things we could consider: LI-security LI-news Newsclips about Linux in India LI-I18n Internationalization / Localization of Linux OS and applications for India Things that I don't think are right: LI-commercial / LI-business: Too broad. And what is the point in GT enterprises posting to it if they are unable to reach a big audience? LI-technical: Every luser tends to think that their question is technical. acctive@vsnl.com wrote: > Somehow we need to automate the list(s) as much as possible. Can the list > robot be programmed to scan predetermined subject 'keywords' ....like > SiS6215, kppp, ;-) ....and redirect mail to the appropriate list(s). The > keywords can be made available on linux-india webpage Currently there is no simple fool-proof way of doing this. So don't expect this any time soon. Indra wrote: > May I suggest something more like having a posting policy which > requires the poster to prefix the subject line with a certain > key-word....eg.... > > [INSTALL] dealing with install issues. > [VIDEO] for video h/w setup/trouble-shooting, > [SAMBA] Specific Samba related stuff > [EMUL] emulators, VMWARE, Bochs et al. > [X SETUP] installation, fine-tuning, upgrading. > [INET] Internet related stuff --> mail servers, dns, dialup connectivity -- POTS, ISDN etc. or "I can't browse" > [NW] Networking related > [LINHCL] Linux HCL, questions like does this/that card work? will that cd-writer/ISDN router/printer work under linux?? > [MISC] those that are difficult to classify into any particular category I have rolled some of your suggestions into my proposal. However a prefix is not a good idea, IMO. Mainly because we want to keep the policies to a minimum so that etiquette policing stays at a minimum. The more complex the policies the higher chance that someone or the other regularly breaks policy. Manoj wrote: > Deciding the focus and charter of the new lists is critical to > the success of this. To those of you who have been through the great > usenet renaming (circa '86, IIRC), that is what took the longest > time. Very important point that I think all of us have to spend some time thinking about. If we design the split well we will be successful in the long run. Some more opinions of mine: * A charter of the various lists is very important. Let us spend some time to iron the kinks out in a charter. I will work on a charter over the weekend and post it. Would appreciate comments / suggestions / criticisms * Our lists also need a posting policy. Here are the things that need to be in the policy: + Most lists will be closed to posting by subscribers only. This will prevent spamming. + People, especially old timers, when responding to an off-topic mail will reply back to the author, Cc-ing the appropriate mailing list. + No fancy non-plain-text (read HTML, vCards, msTnef, attachments etc.) emails will be allowed. + All mails to multiple LI mailing lists will be filtered. * All of the major lists listed above will be available in the -digest form. * Needless to say, the mailing list archive will reside under http://lists...org/ * An easy to use HTML form to subscribe to one or more lists will be provided off the above website. To see what I mean take a look at http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/subscribe Thaths -- "Hey, we just got away with murder. And it was so easy. Y'know, I never liked that wiener Milhouse." -- Homer J. Simpson Sudhakar C13n http://people.netscape.com/thaths/ Lead Indentured Slave From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 19:42:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id TAA08571 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 19:42:54 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA08567 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 19:42:46 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01586 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:12:01 +0530 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:12:01 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Arun Sharma wrote: > Whatever you do, make sure that subscribing to the list is idiot > proof. > The reason why the split didn't work very well last time around was that > it was very hard to get people to s ubscribe to anything other than > linux-india. Good point. What I suggest is to cause an auto reply to be sent back to the sender with the complete "user manual" whenever someone sends a message to the main LI group. This should include detailed s ubscribe, uns ubscribe, mode-switch (single/digest) and other instructions, and (of course) the (new and improved!) list guidelines. Now that we have web-based s ubscription, things should be easier - a user can just go to the website and select his lists. Instructions to reach the site should also be in the user manual. Additionally, I would also suggest that non-s ubscriber posts should immediately be bounced back with an appropriate instruction message. I suspect that this is already configured by not yet working 100% reliably (I had a wrong 'un land up in my box the other day). Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 20:25:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA08927 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:25:24 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA08923 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:25:17 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01646 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:55:02 +0530 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:55:01 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal In-Reply-To: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Sudhakar Chandrasekharan wrote: > LI-install Installation woes > > LI-setup Configuration of various pieces of software. > > LI-X Questions about installing and configuring Xfree86 and SiS cards. > > LI-networking Network configuration, PPP, VSNL etc. I suspect that we will have a problem here. When a guy cannot install RHL 6.1 (or Corel/Debian, Suse 6.3, etc.) because the graphical installation does not recognise his display card, is that an X problem, an installation problem or a setup issue? I don't think we should go into *that* much detail with the lists immediately - it would be counter-productive, and highly confusing for newbies. > LI-programmers Move the egroups.com list to lists.linux-india.org Absolutely! > LI-misc Anything that does not fall under any other category. Nope, that would be LI-General. > LI-admins A controversial closed list. A forum for coordinating between > coordinators of the various regional ILUGs and other friends of Linux in > India. While this would be a low-volume list, I see a definite requirement for this, and the need will grow once LI becomes more formalised in its existence. > LI-jobs A mailing list to look for and post job openings. I am in two minds about this. It makes a lot of sense, and would in fact encourage people to advertise Linux-related jobs, but I am not sure if this as a list makes much sense. I would rather say that jobmaster@linux-india.org should be an alias that people can post to so that these positions can be posted on the web site. This will also act as a sort of pseudo advertisement and show of power for the growth in popularity of Linux and LI. > Things we could consider: > > LI-security > LI-news Newsclips about Linux in India > LI-I18n Internationalization / Localization of Linux OS and applications > for India Consider yes, but not in phase one. We need to analyse the traffic and create such lists when it becomes obvious that these topics are of specific interest to people - say 10 posts a week on the subject over two months. > Things that I don't think are right: > > LI-commercial / LI-business: Too broad. And what is the point in GT > enterprises posting to it if they are unable to reach a big audience? Uh, I meant LI-Business should discuss corporate aspects of using Linux - possibly an offshoot of LI-advocacy, but with less religion and more business-focus. For example, discussions on the TCO and RoI of using Linux. This would also be a devastating tool for countering business-related FUD generated...uh...elsewhere. > LI-technical: Every luser tends to think that their question is technical. Sadly, yes. But consider that most newbies have no clue under which topic the problem actually falls. For example - many people think that their problems connecting to the net are a KPPP problem (which is an X program) when in reality is is a networking problem. I think we should start off slowly. Break LI into a *few* catchall lists that make sense to the average newbie and guru to encourage their participation and sustain their interest, then slowly add more specific topics as the need arises. > Some more opinions of mine: > > * A charter of the various lists is very important. Let us spend some time > to iron the kinks out in a charter. I will work on a charter over the > weekend and post it. Would appreciate comments / suggestions / criticisms Good start. Also keep in mind the overall charter of LI, because the list charter and the LI charter will be closely related. People now speak of LI as if it is a formal body (two nights ago, I was told by a friend in high places that he has received complaints from a certain "other" OS company saying "*Linux India* is causing us grief"). > * Needless to say, the mailing list archive will reside under > http://lists...org/ Absolutely, and I suggest that we have the ILUGs move there, too. We should check with Bhavin whether he could provide separate login/webspace for each ILUG and make DNS entries so that cochin.linux-india.org, bangalore.linux-india.org, etc. become feasible. It will also save ILUG coordinators $70/domain (e.g. ILUG-goa.org) without robbing them of their individuality. Comments? Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 21:12:13 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA09392 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 21:12:13 -0800 Received: from blr.vsnl.net.in (blr.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.6]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id VAA09388 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 21:12:08 -0800 Received: from indica (indica@PPP-190-198.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.190.198]) by blr.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05562 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:35:36 +0530 (IST) From: Dakshinamurthy Karra Organization: Subex Systems Ltd. To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:35:29 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99100410441901.00464@indica> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 03 Dec 1999, Atul Chitnis wrote: > I don't think we should go into *that* much detail with the lists > immediately - it would be counter-productive, and highly confusing for > newbies. I totally agree with this. Most of the newbie questions are related to X configuration *and* Network setup. So having a single list catering to all technical queries is much better than seperating them out. > Absolutely, and I suggest that we have the ILUGs move there, too. We > should check with Bhavin whether he could provide separate login/webspace > for each ILUG and make DNS entries so that cochin.linux-india.org, > bangalore.linux-india.org, etc. become feasible. It will also save ILUG > coordinators $70/domain (e.g. ILUG-goa.org) without robbing them of their > individuality. > Hmm... Bhavin was OK sometime back for a chennai.linux-india.org. But now we have more than 10 ILUGs, can Bhavin really provide them all with webspace? I will check it out with him. -- KD From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 21:51:44 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA09717 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 21:51:44 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id VAA09711 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 21:51:19 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01891; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:20:57 +0530 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:20:57 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Dakshinamurthy Karra cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal In-Reply-To: <99100410441901.00464@indica> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Dakshinamurthy Karra wrote: > Hmm... Bhavin was OK sometime back for a chennai.linux-india.org. But now we > have more than 10 ILUGs, can Bhavin really provide them all with webspace? I > will check it out with him. It does *not* have to be free! Instead of paying $70 to NSI, people could pay half that amount to Bhavin - it will server more than one purpose! In fact I *strongly* suggest that Bhavin positions himself as the premier ILUG-hosting service. If he does not, people will go elsewhere for their webhosting requirements and pay the money there - in addition to paying for the domain reg itself. Bhavin has been good to LI, it's time that LI is good to him, too. Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 22:05:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA09992 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:05:00 -0800 Received: from blr.vsnl.net.in (blr.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.6]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA09987 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:04:54 -0800 Received: from indica (indica@PPP-190-216.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.190.216]) by blr.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA16823 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:28:22 +0530 (IST) From: Dakshinamurthy Karra Organization: Subex Systems Ltd. To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:35:37 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99100411370602.00754@indica> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 03 Dec 1999, Atul Chitnis wrote: > It does *not* have to be free! Instead of paying $70 to NSI, people could > pay half that amount to Bhavin - it will server more than one purpose! In > fact I *strongly* suggest that Bhavin positions himself as the premier > ILUG-hosting service. If he does not, people will go elsewhere for their > webhosting requirements and pay the money there - in addition to paying > for the domain reg itself. > > Bhavin has been good to LI, it's time that LI is good to him, too. I sent this message (verbatim - Atul knows how to put things in writing better ;-) to Bhavin. Let us see his response. -- KD From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 22:05:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA10015 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:05:59 -0800 Received: from bgl2.vsnl.net.in (bgl2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.46]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA10011 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:05:54 -0800 Received: from active.vsnl.net.in (PPP-188-172.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.188.172]) by bgl2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA05985 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:27:24 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19991204113143.0068dfc0@202.54.12.47> X-Sender: active@202.54.12.47 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:32:07 +0500 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org From: Active Technologies Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk > >Bhavin has been good to LI, it's time that LI is good to him, too. > >Atul Where does the funding for LI come from ? If some funding is already in place, great !! otherwise, I feel that we should raise some money through contributions. I am willing to contribute to the fund. Sabir From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 22:12:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA10155 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:12:41 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA10151 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:12:35 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01993 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:42:29 +0530 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:42:29 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991204113143.0068dfc0@202.54.12.47> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Active Technologies wrote: > Where does the funding for LI come from ? If some funding is already in > place, great !! otherwise, I feel that we should raise some money through > contributions. I am willing to contribute to the fund. So would we all. But this is best handled at ILUG level, else LI will be accused of dictatorship. (remember the "Rs.60!!!" thread? ;-) Let us wait for Bhavin's response/offer, and then let the ILUGs pile on. Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 22:14:13 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA10179 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:14:13 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA10175 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:14:11 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA17282 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:14:11 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:14:11 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Message-ID: <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com>; from Raghavendra Bhat on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 04:43:49AM +0000 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Raghavendra Bhat's mail containing RMS quote: > > [The lists redhat-devel-list@redhat.com and gnome-list@gnome.org would > not let me post to them. If you can, would you please forward this > reply to those lists?] > I'm actually surprised. Whoever controls gnome-list must be holding tons of Redhat stock :-) > Many of you are aware that the GNU Project objects to this. If you've > heard about this from other people, you may have heard an inaccurate > rendition of the reasons why; people who disagree and those who > support us often oversimplify them. See > http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html for the real explanation, if > you're interested. First, let me acknowledge the high quality technical work the GNU project has contributed to the free software community. It was RMS's pioneering work that led to GNU cc, which I think is his single most important contribution to the community*. However, the politics surrounding the GNU project is rather obnoxious. RMS and the GNU project have a very explicit agenda to be uncooperative with closed source commercial entities with the goal of completely replacing them with GPL'ed software (Note: this is not the same as free software). Open source is not a panacea. There are situations where it works better than closed source. Hard economic realities dictate that a large amount of commercial work will continue to be closed source. Further, open source should be by choice - not by coercion as the GNU project seeks to achieve it. The GNU project claims that a commercial entity "takes away" your freedom if they take your open source work, add some value and sell it as closed source for money. The reality however is that your freedom is perfectly intact. All the source that you wrote is still out there for everyone to use. No one has taken your freedom away as RMS repeatedly insists. On the other hand, GPL restricts certain freedoms. It is not as 'free as in speech' as public domain software or BSD licensed software. Specifically, it restricts your freedom to make commercial software out of it. GPL is also a viral license. If you have a piece of software that has both GPL'ed code and code with licence , the end result *has* to be GPL'ed, because GPL is the most restrictive of them all. Get rid of the GPL virus. Make your software BSD licensed**. Do you want a tomorrow where all software is GPL'ed or a tomorrow where there is a lot of open source software that peacefully coexists with commercial software and offers enough incentive to entrepreneurs to base their next innovation (Mr Gates has polluted this word - but I'll use it anyway) on open source software ? Even though you contribute code to GPL'ed projects like Linux, your code doesn't have to be GPL'ed. The resulting work will be GPL'ed, but your code will remain `free' to be used in other open source, non-GPL'ed projects - Apache, X, FreeBSD, Perl, Python to name a few. Right now, people who disagree with the GNU concepts are forced to rewrite code in order to stay away from the virus. However, GPL'ed projects are free to absorb code from other non-GPL'ed projects - just as Linux has absorbed code from BSD. The choice is yours. If you're confused and need more information on the topic, feel free to email me and I'll be happy to point you to more resources (both pro and anti GPL). -Arun * It is often said that if the GNU project didn't exist, Linux wouldn't have existed. I think otherwise - Linux would've used the fine BSD "operating system" (this is using RMS terminology, which excludes the kernel). gcc is an exception to this. BSD used a commercial compiler, before switching to gcc. ** A link to the FreeBSD license: http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/copyright.html The only requirement on the source or binary user is acknowledgement of your copyright and a legal disclaimer. It's as simple as that. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 22:24:39 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA10397 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:24:39 -0800 Received: from bgl2.vsnl.net.in (bgl2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.46]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA10392 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:24:33 -0800 Received: from active.vsnl.net.in (PPP-188-173.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.188.173]) by bgl2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA12228 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:46:05 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19991204115042.00694b6c@202.54.12.47> X-Sender: active@202.54.12.47 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:50:47 +0500 To: Linux India General List From: Active Technologies Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk At 11:42 AM 12/4/99 +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote: >On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Active Technologies wrote: > >> Where does the funding for LI come from ? If some funding is already in >> place, great !! otherwise, I feel that we should raise some money through >> contributions. I am willing to contribute to the fund. > >So would we all. But this is best handled at ILUG level, else LI will be >accused of dictatorship. (remember the "Rs.60!!!" thread? ;-) > >Let us wait for Bhavin's response/offer, and then let the ILUGs pile on. > >Atul In any case I am also willing to contribute in kind.......errr Kind ? what's that !!??......well my marketing and sales skills are available for LI should it be needed ;-) ;-) Peace, Sabir From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 22:25:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA10418 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:25:48 -0800 Received: from ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (ausmtp02.au.ibm.COM [202.135.136.105]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA10393 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:24:37 -0800 From: skhader@in.ibm.com Received: from f03n05e.au.ibm.com by ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (IBM AP 1.0) with ESMTP id RAA174618 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:16:28 +1100 Received: from d73mta05.au.ibm.com (f06n05s [9.185.166.67]) by f03n05e.au.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA47398 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:24:24 +1100 Received: by d73mta05.au.ibm.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id CA25683D.00232C88 ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:24:11 +1100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMIN@IBMAU To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:53:21 +0530 Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk It looks like ragu is bent upon making it a technical issue. ;-) < I remember the story of a boy being told to write an essay and everytime he would come down to his favourite part about the cow ;-) > Regards Khader ---------------------------------- @}-------- Syed Khader Vali skhader@in.ibm.com Linuxer First, Debianer Second, Anything else Next. Arun Sharma on 12/04/99 11:49:51 AM That message was not about *technical* aspects of FSSTND. The main point of the article was whether the operating system popularly called "Linux" is a misnomer or not. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 22:50:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA10682 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:50:50 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA10678 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:50:49 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA17444; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:50:45 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:50:45 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Atul Chitnis Cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Message-ID: <19991203225045.A17395@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Atul Chitnis on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 09:55:01AM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 09:55:01AM +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote: > > LI-jobs A mailing list to look for and post job openings. > > I am in two minds about this. It makes a lot of sense, and would in fact > encourage people to advertise Linux-related jobs, but I am not sure if > this as a list makes much sense. I would rather say that > jobmaster@linux-india.org should be an alias that people can post to so > that these positions can be posted on the web site. This will also act as > a sort of pseudo advertisement and show of power for the growth in > popularity of Linux and LI. I'd say do both. Some people don't have the time to poll the website. Agree with most of your other comments though. Also, lets be guarded against the diluting the enthusiastic, lively environment that LI has today into too many lists. We need to do this in stages - slowly and carefully. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 22:57:51 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA10789 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:57:51 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA10784 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:57:47 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id AAA10327; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:49:59 -0600 X-Time: Sat Dec 4 00:49:57 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: Sudhakar Chandrasekharan Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal References: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 04 Dec 1999 00:49:57 -0600 In-Reply-To: Sudhakar Chandrasekharan's message of "Fri, 03 Dec 1999 15:44:35 -0800" Message-ID: <877liv8aju.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 82 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Sudhakar> LI-install Installation woes Sudhakar> LI-setup Configuration of various pieces of software. Sudhakar> LI-X Questions about installing and configuring Sudhakar> Xfree86 and SiS cards. Sudhakar> LI-networking Network configuration, PPP, VSNL etc. All these should probably be one list. The kind of people most likely to have problems are unlikely to be able to diagnose the problem a priori, and we would have mis filed podting, or worse, cross posts (if you try and folter it out, it makes problems worse. People send each mail separately, with like content, to different lists). I suggest Linix-india-help. Sudhakar> LI-misc Anything that does not fall under any Sudhakar> other category. Sudhakar> LI-jobs A mailing list to look for and post job openings. Does this already rate a separate list? Can this not be merged into misc for the time being? I think you need to phase the new lists into action as the need and volume grows. Sudhakar> LI-admins A controversial closed list. A forum for Sudhakar> coordinating between coordinators of the various regional Sudhakar> ILUGs and other friends of Linux in India. Personally, I am not in favour of closed lists -- they tend to be contra productive in the long run. I shall not object, though, if you think we need *one* closed list (why do you think we need something not open to general subscribers?). Sudhakar> LI-security Again, why is this required? BUGTRAQ and cert-* should be enough. It is not as if we are developing code or distributions here. Why do we need an indian specific security list? Sudhakar> LI-news Newsclips about Linux in India Why is this not in -announce? Sudhakar> LI-programmers Move the egroups.com list to Sudhakar> lists.linux-india.org Sudhakar> LI-I18n Internationalization / Localization of Sudhakar> Linux OS and applications Sudhakar> for India Generalize this into a -devel list; don't tie it down to a specific topic quite yet (at least, not while all development is rteally vaporware). What is the distinction between programmers and this list? Sudhakar> + Most lists will be closed to posting by subscribers Sudhakar> only. This will prevent spamming. Umm. I would rather have filters for spam (the spambouncer is rather nice); but I can live with it if absolutely necesary. (This probably means that one can only post from a fixed address, and I often travel). Sudhakar> + All mails to multiple LI mailing lists will be filtered. Does not help, in practice. People just send the message out in sequence, making it harder to filter out duplicates. And cross posting is an indication we have split out too narrowly. manoj -- May a Misguided Platypus lay its Eggs in your Jockey Shorts. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C fingerprint = 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 23:11:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA10975 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:11:29 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA10971 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:11:26 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA17621 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:11:20 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:11:20 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Message-ID: <19991203231120.A17585@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com> <877liv8aju.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <877liv8aju.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 12:49:57AM -0600 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 12:49:57AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > > Personally, I am not in favour of closed lists -- they tend to > be contra productive in the long run. I shall not object, though, if > you think we need *one* closed list (why do you think we need > something not open to general subscribers?). You're right. In most cases, a personal mailing list containing the appropriate parties will do the trick. In fact, that is how we've been operating so far. However, if someone needs to have official contact with Linux India - such a closed list, would serve the purpose. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 23:14:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA11067 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:14:15 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA11062 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:14:10 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA17650; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:13:59 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:13:58 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Atul Chitnis Cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Message-ID: <19991203231358.B17585@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <3.0.32.19991204113143.0068dfc0@202.54.12.47> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Atul Chitnis on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 11:42:29AM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 11:42:29AM +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote: > On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Active Technologies wrote: > > > Where does the funding for LI come from ? If some funding is already in > > place, great !! otherwise, I feel that we should raise some money through > > contributions. I am willing to contribute to the fund. > > So would we all. But this is best handled at ILUG level, else LI will be > accused of dictatorship. (remember the "Rs.60!!!" thread? ;-) As long as accounts are public, it should be ok. Ignore the whiners. I'm investigating the possibilities of colocating a dedicated server at a local ISP here. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 23:50:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA11295 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:50:40 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA11291 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:50:24 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01028 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:20:01 +0530 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:20:00 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Arun Sharma wrote: > RMS and the GNU project have a very explicit agenda to be uncooperative > with closed source commercial entities with the goal of completely replacing > them with GPL'ed software (Note: this is not the same as free software). I hate to use this term here, but the approach by RMS and his followers is starkly communistic - not in the Marxian way, but in the "use the idealogy of communism to control and achieve one's goal" way used by Russia and East Germany. Invoking the holy name of GPL everytime someone makes/talks money is a sure-fire way of killing the concept altogether. There are realities that are at work here, and GPL isn't playing the game by the rules. To top that, the "hippo-crazy" [sic] angle is strong, too. Even RMS had no hassles with accepting money for his work (ironically part-sponsored by Microsoft), yet brutally mauls anyone who remotely stands a chance of making a bit of money with his work. And he drives people who lack a cause of their own into a frenzy, which results in posts of the type we get subjected to every 3 months or so (dependent on the phase of the moon and other things, I guess). I see no sense at all in this approach. The whole idea behind OpenSource is the liberal-minded attitude that goes with it. GPL and RMS's strife-riddled, politically motivated "comments" on how the industry should evolve (in his own way of thinking) is turning away far too many people for comfort. RMS seems to be hellbent on making Linux the bad boy, while at the same time desperately trying to latch onto the evergrowing popularity of Linux. What stops him from *finally* getting Hurd into a usable shape so that he can have his own "free" kernel? While it is true that Linux distros are built around GPL'd software, I should also point out that many of the people who wrote the software and GPL'd it were unaware of the politics associated with GPL, and how their work would be used to fight a bloody civil ware against their own people. A classic example of the damage being done is Ragoo's post - a mindless parroting of ideology without caring two hoots about the disruption and confusion being caused, or who gets hurt. "To make an omelette, you have to break eggs" seems to be the accepted approach - one that implies an uncaring attitude as well as an agenda. RMS's stand *used* to be (this may have changed) that software should be free, services should be charged. Noble in concept, but how does that relate to Ragoo's comments on people paying Rs.60 for food at a ILUG meet? It is this kind of mindless application of one's "religion" to something completely unrelated that completely disrupts an otherwise highly co-operative community such as Linux India. The same applies to arguments defending an openly political post talking about "GNU/Linux" by saying it was technical in nature. I do not normally post something like this, and I know that someone is already filling the tanks of his flamethrower in preperation of roasting my butt, but I am *SICK* of such uncaring, disruptive and frankly mindless posts as friend Ragoo chose to unleash on the poor unsuspecting Linux newbies in Linux India. Who needs the Blue Screen FUD Brigade when we can destroy ourselves this way, all on our own? Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 3 23:53:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA11323 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:53:31 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA11319 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 23:53:26 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01033 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:23:17 +0530 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:23:17 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal In-Reply-To: <877liv8aju.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On 4 Dec 1999, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > I suggest Linix-india-help. Apart from the obvious spellcheck ;-) I'd call it linux-india-TECH-help or something else descriptive -it helps a lot getting a fix on which list would be the right one to post a technical query to. Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 00:04:08 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA11478 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:04:08 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA11474 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:04:06 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA17803; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:04:04 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:04:04 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Raj Mathur Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Message-ID: <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from Raj Mathur on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 12:43:03PM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 12:43:03PM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: > Next, it /is/ true that software is wealth, and making proprietary > software is tantamount to reducing the amount of wealth in the world. That is communism in my book. In your view of the world, software, which you define as wealth should be free for all. In other words, having property is illegal. If this is not communism, what else is ? I would like to be in control of my wealth. If I please, I'll donate some of my wealth to others. But no one can force me to do that. > Purely from a moral point of view, then, all software should be free. Impractical. > If you make proprietary software, you are a hoarder, Let me ask you this - do you have a bank account ? > and I for one > will not encourage you in your selfish objectives by giving you the > means to incorporate my code into your software. Who said anything is wrong with being selfish ? That's what drives capitalism. > All code I write is > GPL'd, and if you don't like the GPL you are free to use a (perhaps > better, perhaps worse) implementation which follows a less (more?) > restrictive license. (a) Sure I don't like GPL. But to be practical - Linux is the OS that best suits my needs today and from a practical point of view, it makes sense to contribute to it. (b) Even RMS admits that GPL is a *more* restrictive license. He just insists that it is more "free", for his definition of "free". > Now comes the question of how programmers are to make money. I don't > know whether anyone on this list has noticed, but the world is > changing. MS, for example, has publicly announced their intent to > completely change the focus of their company from software to services > in a few years. MS still owes most, if not all of their money to closed software and will continue to make most of their money that way. I as a programmer, would like to design new things and implement them. That's what I'm good at and what I'd like to get paid for. I don't see anything immoral about it. If RMS has a problem with what I do, he can continue blowing his horn (which is drying up whatever respect he had, due to his technical excellence) and I'll write BSD licensed code and will tell others, using whatever forum is available to me to do the same. > I don't know of any large computer hardware vendor > who is not focussing on services to drive their revenues (IBM, of > course, has been doing that for years). The cost you pay for > commercial software is split about 20-80 between the cost of > developing that software and supporting it. Sure. We can all put on the consultant hat and continue to become service engineers. Who's going to write the software ? Where is the incentive ? And continuing the RMS philosophy, service engineers have knowledge. Knowledge is wealth. If you get paid for service, you're hoarding your knowledge. You selfish service engineer! > In other words, if you > don't recognise that fact that the economy of tomorrow will be driven > by services rather than by products, you will find yourself shut out > of a, ahem, new world order. Something like the Post PC era that's been coming for how many years now ? > > Given this, proprietary software will only play a small part in the IT > revenues of the world. Most of the money will be made by people like > Atul, Kishore and Gopi, who are offering services only, or primarily > (can someone enlighten us on the split between service and product > revenue of Exocore and/or C&B Consulting in the past year?) In past > avatars I've earned tons of money (atleast by my standards :-) from > writing, porting, packaging and supporting free (GPL'd) software, and > I would be doing it today if I didn't have committments to my job. > Ok. You can lecture me on how to make money using services. I'm *not* interested in being a service engineer. I'd like to do new things. In your scheme of things, I should be a service engineer by the day and a free software developer by the night ? I might as well write commercial software by the day and write free software for entertainment purposes. > There is no dearth for money to be made and no need for programmers to > starve. Even if you find that you are rotten at client interaction > and cannot get directly into services, or you are only a hard-core > programmer, resources like cosource.com and [what's the other one, > forgotten it's name :-) ] will act as a mediator where people will pay > you for the GPL software you develop to their specifications. Again the GNU agenda. Let me repeat GPL != free software. SourceXchange is headed by one of the Apache founders. If you see the Apache license (and the fact that apache.org runs on FreeBSD) you can get his inclination. > Given all this, I see no reason to avoid the GPL virus. If you have > faith in your capabilities to deliver quality products and services, > if you read the papers and magazines, if you believe that the world > should be a better place to live in for everyone, For everyone - including those of us, who believe in and work in proprietary, closed source software companies. GPL doesn't accommadate us. > if you have ever > used a proprietary software and wondered, ``Why doesn't this do X the > way I want X done?'', It's easy to shoot down Windows (the prime example of proprietary software) in a Linux crowd. Seriously, do you believe that it's going away in the next decade ? It has it's place. That's reality. NT just got a C2 certification, it beats Linux in performance benchmarks and usability. It's just that the code is owned by a overly agressive company and as a student of computer science, NT is not very interesting because of its closed nature. Technically, you can create a debian distribution around the NT kernel and Win32 GUI. It's just too expensive, uninteresting and un-heroic to do so. Cygnus almost does it. > if you don't want to rely on any single > organisation for your software support needs, then the GPL is the way > to go. GPL is not a necessary condition. You can get support for Apache from many consultants for example. > Any license with different objectives will only dilute the > effort that all of us are making and lengthen the shift. A different license without the objective of "destroying closed source" is exactly what is needed. -Arun PS: Before we go too deep into this, can someone verify that this is not a hoax ? I couldn't see the RMS posting on debian-user archives. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 00:08:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA11634 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:08:53 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA11629 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:08:46 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01070 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:38:34 +0530 X-Received: from localhost (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02422 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:44:44 +0530 X-Received: from infobsun2.infoboard.net by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for achitnis@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 04 Dec 1999 12:44:44 +0530 (IST) X-Received: (from cbcon@localhost) by infobsun2.infoboard.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.5) id CAA14123 for achitnis@infobsun2.infoboard.net; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:08:39 -0500 (EST) X-Received: (from root@localhost) by infobsun2.infoboard.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.5) id CAA14115 for cbcon; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:08:37 -0500 (EST) X-Received: from cal.vsnl.net.in (cal.vsnl.net.in [202.54.9.25]) by infobsun2.infoboard.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA14097 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:08:31 -0500 (EST) X-Received: from indradg.cal.vsnl.net.in (ppp116-94.pppcal.vsnl.net.in [203.197.116.94]) by cal.vsnl.net.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA17513 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:13:53 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912040743.NAA17513@cal.vsnl.net.in> From: "Indranil Das Gupta" To: "Atul Chitnis" Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:42:11 +0530 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Envelope-To: achitnis@exocore.com X-Loop: Infoboard X-UIDL: 5547788140b308ba893e0aaa9cc86f7a Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Well, I don't know....I mean ilug-cal, ilug-delhi have already registered their TLDs and are having their individual web-sites, would they be moving?? As far as ILUG-Calcutta is concerned, we are not moving, not because we are against it. Rather, we get hosted for free, have access to majordomo servers to run our LUG lists -- again for free. But most importantly, because we wouldn't leave our host Russell McOrmand, has been a big help to us at every point. Fund-raising in places (eg. Calcutta), where Linux is yet to be very visible at the corporate levels, can be a hair-raising experience (been there, done that :) We had people going back on pledges. Talking of the Rs. 60 thread... at Cal, we are lucky if our total refreshment bill for a meeting exceeds Rs. 100 ;-) As far as the actual funding of our LUG goes, a lot of it actually happens out of the pockets of the more active members and a few others who contribute. Once I put forward a proposal of annual subscription of Rs. 300 for the employed persons and Rs. 100 for students, the money was to be utilised to buy CDs and other resources like LJ, or purchase a Net account for our LUG so that we can distribution the responsibility of handling the mails to LUG in case one of us is out-of-station. Almost immediately I crash-landed with my tail up in flames ;) --Indra. ---------- From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Date: Saturday, December 04, 1999 11:42 AM On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Active Technologies wrote: > Where does the funding for LI come from ? If some funding is already in > place, great !! otherwise, I feel that we should raise some money through > contributions. I am willing to contribute to the fund. So would we all. But this is best handled at ILUG level, else LI will be accused of dictatorship. (remember the "Rs.60!!!" thread? ;-) Let us wait for Bhavin's response/offer, and then let the ILUGs pile on. Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 01:45:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id BAA12365 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 01:45:04 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id BAA12354 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 01:44:58 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01374 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:14:52 +0530 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:14:52 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Arun Sharma wrote: > PS: Before we go too deep into this, can someone verify that this is > not a hoax ? I couldn't see the RMS posting on debian-user archives. If it is a hoax, it just underlines my point about mindlessness. If it isn't, it dots the "i". Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 01:48:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id BAA12445 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 01:48:41 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id BAA12441 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 01:48:35 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id DAA17447; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 03:45:39 -0600 X-Time: Sat Dec 4 03:45:36 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: Arun Sharma Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 04 Dec 1999 03:45:36 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:14:11 -0800" Message-ID: <874sdz6nun.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 175 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Arun made his plea for the *Bsd licence. Unfortunately, he characterized the GPL in a fashion I find offensive. No matter, he probably shall find this article mildly offensive too. Before you pull out your flame throwers, please understand this is not meant personally; this is an exression of my opinion on the subject. >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> RMS and the GNU project have a very explicit agenda to be Arun> uncooperative with closed source commercial entities with the Arun> goal of completely replacing them with GPL'ed software (Note: Arun> this is not the same as free software). Is that now what Linux is too? A librè replacement for proprietary operating systems? Debian certainly follows the 100% Free OS formula. Arun> Open source is not a panacea. There are situations where it Arun> works better than closed source. Hard economic realities Arun> dictate that a large amount of commercial work will continue to Arun> be closed source. Further, open source should be by choice - Arun> not by coercion as the GNU project seeks to achieve it. Where does the coercion come in? Where is the threat making you choose to use free software? Where is the gun to your head? Imprecision in choosing ones words makes one wonder about the precision of the ideology behind it. All the GPL states is: here is some work I have put in, and it is meant for the commmunity of people who come and share around. No one is forcing you to use my work. But if you do, please realize that you are expected to contribute, or at least not take the sources away and restrict the freedom of others to enjoy the fruits of my labour. This is how communities are built. Arun> The GNU project claims that a commercial entity "takes away" Arun> your freedom if they take your open source work, add some value Arun> and sell it as closed source for money. The reality however is Arun> that your freedom is perfectly intact. All the source that you Arun> wrote is still out there for everyone to use. No one has taken Arun> your freedom away as RMS repeatedly insists. That is a matter of interpretation. The synergy that comes when people contribute back, when the software goes from strength to strength, when each contributor is springing off the work of other people -- that synergy, that freedom of software, is what is lodt. Arun> On the other hand, GPL restricts certain freedoms. It is not as Arun> 'free as in speech' All freedome are realized by restricting some one elses rights. Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. And in most countries, your right to free speech ends when you atart to libel. Or steal copyrighted works. Or even, in areas where children can access them, pornography is restricted too. Yes, the GPL restricts your right to harm other people by robbing them of the synergy and sense of community that librated software brings. Arun> as public domain software or BSD licensed software. Arun> Specifically, it restricts your freedom to make commercial Arun> software out of it. Quite right. The GPL is about building a community. Why do you think you enjoy software that has had the blood and seat and tears of people poured into it? I have spent 25 hours in a week where my day job took 50 working for Debian. Why do you think peoplr can just take that work and enjoy it? Cause I am contributing to a community that I belong to, and I am going to take steps to protect that community. As I said, if you don't like that, no one is forcing you. Arun> GPL is also a viral license. If you have a piece of software Arun> that has both GPL'ed code and code with licence , the end Arun> result *has* to be GPL'ed, because GPL is the most restrictive Arun> of them all. I like that. It strengthens my community. No one can take GPL'd software away like X/Open tried to take X11 away from us, and only XFree's threat of forking made them desist. Arun> Get rid of the GPL virus. Make your software BSD licensed**. The BSDs were around long before Linux started. Whydo you think they failed to provide the world with useful software? Cause they do not care about community. The BSD licence is a reflection of the elitist, iconoclastic creators of *BSDs. You licence your code under the BSD licence, you are weakening the community that brought you gcc, Emacs, and Linux. And the one bringing you a lot of KDE, GNOME, and Berlin. Arun> Do you want a tomorrow where all software is GPL'ed or a Absolutely. Arun> tomorrow where there is a lot of open source software that Arun> peacefully coexists with commercial software and offers enough Arun> incentive to entrepreneurs to base their next innovation (Mr Arun> Gates has polluted this word - but I'll use it anyway) on open Arun> source software ? Your naivete is refreshing. But remember, GPL'd software coexists with proprietary software too (where do you think gcc and Emacs were developed?) All the GPL does is prevent some one from leeching off your labour and not giving anything in return. Arun> Even though you contribute code to GPL'ed projects like Linux, Arun> your code doesn't have to be GPL'ed. Oh, great. Just rip off the people whose work you are using. Arun> The resulting work will be GPL'ed, but your code will remain Arun> `free' to be used in other open source, non-GPL'ed projects - Arun> Apache, X, FreeBSD, Perl, Python to name a few. Right now, Arun> people who disagree with the GNU concepts are forced to rewrite Arun> code in order to stay away from the virus. However, GPL'ed Arun> projects are free to absorb code from other non-GPL'ed projects Arun> - just as Linux has absorbed code from BSD. I like this part. It may not be fair, but sure is competetive ;-) BTW, Perl is distributed under the GPL, if oe chooses so. And Perl can indeed incorporate GPL'd code, while retainig the same licence. Arun> The choice is yours. Yup. Arun> If you're confused and need more information on the topic, feel Arun> free to email me and I'll be happy to point you to more Arun> resources (both pro and anti GPL). Arun> -Arun Arun> * It is often said that if the GNU project didn't exist, Linux Arun> wouldn't have existed. I think otherwise - Linux would've Arun> used the fine BSD "operating system" (this is using RMS Arun> terminology, which excludes the kernel). gcc is an exception Arun> to this. BSD used a commercial compiler, before switching to Arun> gcc. So how come the *BSD's have failed miserably to matvh the popularity of Linux despite a head start? manoj -- Nothing that's forced can ever be right, If it doesn't come naturally, leave it. That's what she said as she turned out the light, And we bent our backs as slaves of the night, Then she lowered her guard and showed me the scars She got from trying to fight Saying, oh, you'd better believe it. [...] Well nothing that's real is ever for free And you just have to pay for it sometime. She said it before, she said it to me, I suppose she believed there was nothing to see, But the same old four imaginary walls She'd built for livin' inside I said oh, you just can't mean it. [...] Well nothing that's forced can ever be right, If it doesn't come naturally, leave it. That's what she said as she turned out the light, And she may have been wrong, and she may have been right, But I woke with the frost, and noticed she'd lost The veil that covered her eyes, I said oh, you can leave it. Al Stewart, "If It Doesn't Come Naturally, Leave It" Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C fingerprint = 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 02:09:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id CAA12671 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:09:30 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id CAA12667 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:09:24 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id EAA17985; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:02:50 -0600 X-Time: Sat Dec 4 04:02:47 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: Atul Chitnis Cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 04 Dec 1999 04:02:48 -0600 In-Reply-To: Atul Chitnis's message of "Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:20:00 +0530 (IST)" Message-ID: <87zovr58hj.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 147 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>"Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: Atul> I hate to use this term here, but the approach by RMS and his Atul> followers is starkly communistic - not in the Marxian way, but Atul> in the "use the idealogy of communism to control and achieve Atul> one's goal" way used by Russia and East Germany. Actually, they use the perfectly capitalistic concept of intellectual property and copyright law to achieve what they believe is a protection of the end user. Atul> Invoking the holy name of GPL everytime someone makes/talks Atul> money is a sure-fire way of killing the concept Atul> altogether. There are realities that are at work here, and GPL Atul> isn't playing the game by the rules. Rubish. Shoe me where there is a clause in the GPL that says you can't charge what you wish for your GPL'd software. The artistic licence has an (unenforceable) no charge clause, but not the GPL. I must say this is FUD. Atul> To top that, the "hippo-crazy" [sic] angle is strong, too. Even Atul> RMS had no hassles with accepting money for his work As I said, there is nothing under the GPL, or in RMS's statements, that is against charging money. Red Hat has a market capitalization of Billions selling essentially GPL'd software. Atul> (ironically part-sponsored by Microsoft), yet brutally mauls Atul> anyone who remotely stands a chance of making a bit of money Atul> with his work. Quote chapter and verse please. You are bordering on slander. Atul> And he drives people who lack a cause of their own into a That is something I have rarely been accused of. Atul> frenzy, which results in posts of the type we get subjected to Atul> every 3 months or so (dependent on the phase of the moon and Atul> other things, I guess). Taking the low road, I see. Atul> I see no sense at all in this approach. The whole idea behind Atul> OpenSource is the liberal-minded attitude that goes with Atul> it. GPL and RMS's strife-riddled, politically motivated Atul> "comments" on how the industry should evolve (in his own way of Atul> thinking) is turning away far too many people for comfort. The GPL is an integral part of the DFSG, and its offspring, the OSD. Personally, even Corel is trying to play fast and loose with the licence terms (did you know about a half dozen or so Debian developers are now legally barred from using the Debian based Corel Linux?) Atul> RMS seems to be hellbent on making Linux the bad boy, while at Atul> the same time desperately trying to latch onto the evergrowing Atul> popularity of Linux. No. He merely points out that the Linux kernel uses a lot of components of the GNU system, and in his opinion, the GNU project should be attributed to. Sounds reasonable to me. Atul> What stops him from *finally* getting Hurd into a usable shape Atul> so that he can have his own "free" kernel? We are working on it. Stay tuned for Debian GNU/HURD, to be along side Debian GNU/Linux. The HURD is several decades ahead of UNIX based Linux OS -- and cutting edge research operating systems take time to stabilize. Linux, after all, is based on 30 year old technology. The HURD is far newer. Atul> While it is true that Linux distros are built around GPL'd Atul> software, I should also point out that many of the people who Atul> wrote the software and GPL'd it were unaware of the politics Atul> associated with GPL, and how their work would be used to fight Atul> a bloody civil ware against their own people. You mean they were too stupid to understand the licence they were releasing their code under? How dumb you think we are? Atul> A classic example of the damage being done is Ragoo's post - a Atul> mindless parroting of ideology without caring two hoots about Atul> the disruption and confusion being caused, or who gets Atul> hurt. "To make an omelette, you have to break eggs" seems to be Atul> the accepted approach - one that implies an uncaring attitude Atul> as well as an agenda. This is just as bad -- you castigate a whole philosophy because of one individual. Shall I remind you Ragoo is an indian as well as a GNU lover? Shall I say the same thing about indians just on this one example? Logic, whre is thy sting? Atul> RMS's stand *used* to be (this may have changed) that software Atul> should be free, services should be charged. Oh god, not again. "FREE AS IN SPEECH, NOT FREE AS IN BEER" I give up. I am dissappointed at the amount of ignorance and bigotry displayed in this post. Atul> Noble in concept, Indeed. Atul> but how does that relate to Ragoo's comments on people paying Atul> Rs.60 for food at a ILUG meet? Could it be because he is indian? That is just as logical as your accusation. Atul> I do not normally post something like this, and I know that Atul> someone is already filling the tanks of his flamethrower in Atul> preperation of roasting my butt, but I am *SICK* of such Atul> uncaring, disruptive and frankly mindless posts as friend Ragoo Atul> chose to unleash on the poor unsuspecting Linux newbies in Atul> Linux India. Who needs the Blue Screen FUD Brigade when we can Atul> destroy ourselves this way, all on our own? So you take it out on poor innocent, GPL lovers. IMHO, this post is equally distruptive as Ragoo's, and from a far more unexpected corner. I really expected better from you. Mea Culpa. manoj disheartened. -- She blinded me with science! Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C fingerprint = 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 02:18:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id CAA12832 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:18:06 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id CAA12828 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:18:01 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id EAA18337; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:12:48 -0600 X-Time: Sat Dec 4 04:12:48 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 04 Dec 1999 04:12:48 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:04:04 -0800" Message-ID: <87vh6f580v.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 62 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> That is communism in my book. In your view of the world, Arun> software, which you define as wealth should be free for all. In Free, as in openly accessible. Free, as in Librè. Equal opportunity. At least, that what I have gathered after hours of discussion with Richard. I am surprised at the amount of confusion surrounding this. Arun> other words, having property is illegal. If this is not Arun> communism, what else is ? A total lack of understanding of what the GPL stands for, I am afraid ;-( I had an over night debate with the President of FreeBSD over the merits of our licences at the ALS. We differed, but at least he knew what the GPL stood for. I can't say the same for this forum. Incidentally, I am charging $250 an hour for writing GPL'd code at this point. Arun> (b) Even RMS admits that GPL is a *more* restrictive license. He just Arun> insists that it is more "free", for his definition of "free". Quite right. Arun> Technically, you can create a debian distribution around the NT Arun> kernel and Win32 GUI. It's just too expensive, uninteresting Arun> and un-heroic to do so. Cygnus almost does it. No. The primary objection would be that teh social contract that Debian has with the free software community would prevent it from ever being a part of Debian. Arun> PS: Before we go too deep into this, can someone verify that this is Arun> not a hoax ? I couldn't see the RMS posting on debian-user archives. It is not a hoax. manoj -- "Hi, I'm Preston A. Mantis, president of Consumers Retail Law Outlet. As you can see by my suit and the fact that I have all these books of equal height on the shelves behind me, I am a trained legal attorney. Do you have a car or a job? Do you ever walk around? If so, you probably have the makings of an excellent legal case. Although of course every case is different, I would definitely say that based on my experience and training, there's no reason why you shouldn't come out of this thing with at least a cabin cruiser. "Remember, at the Preston A. Mantis Consumers Retail Law Outlet, our motto is: 'It is very difficult to disprove certain kinds of pain.'" Dave Barry, "Pain and Suffering" Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C fingerprint = 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 02:24:35 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id CAA12878 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:24:35 -0800 Received: from ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (ausmtp02.au.ibm.COM [202.135.136.105]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id CAA12874 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:24:26 -0800 From: skhader@in.ibm.com Received: from f03n07e.au.ibm.com by ausmtp02.au.ibm.com (IBM AP 1.0) with ESMTP id VAA242372 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 21:16:26 +1100 Received: from d73mta05.au.ibm.com (f06n05s [9.185.166.67]) by f03n07e.au.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA33190 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 21:24:21 +1100 Received: by d73mta05.au.ibm.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id CA25683D.0039286B ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 21:24:18 +1100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMIN@IBMAU To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:54:03 +0530 Subject: Debian maintainer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hello Folks, Well, I am outta this GPL Vs NoN-GPL thing. All I care about is Open Source and DFSG. I like even BSD license. But, when me writing a program, i would certainly think of GPL before going to BSD. Anyway the question I wanted to ask was how can I become a Debian Maintainer ? I know I need to post this on the Debian mailing list, but just becase manoj and thaths are here, i am posting this here. In the Documentation part of installing Debian, It says like this "Anyone who agrees to abide the Debian Social Contract may become a new maintainer". I have read the DSC and even the DFSG. ( Understood And of course intend to abide by them ) Now, what else do I need and how do I proceed to become a new maintainer ?? TIA Regards Khader ---------------------------------- @}-------- Syed Khader Vali skhader@in.ibm.com Linuxer First, Debianer Second, Anything else Next. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 02:29:18 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id CAA12907 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:29:18 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id CAA12903 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:28:52 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id EAA18981; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:24:17 -0600 X-Time: Sat Dec 4 04:24:16 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Settig up X References: <3848AFF5.66D1A108@vsnl.com> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 04 Dec 1999 04:24:17 -0600 In-Reply-To: Raghavendra Bhat's message of "Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:08:53 +0000" Message-ID: <87r9h357hq.fsf_-_@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, >>"ragOO" == Raghavendra Bhat writes: ragOO> Say, I have a problem in getting my X up 'coz due to the ragOO> non-adherance of the FSSNTD; an XYZ distro has put the binary ragOO> XF86_SVGA inside /opt/bin and another XQZ distro has put it in ragOO> /opt/usr/X11R6/bin. How do U intend to solve my problem if ragOO> this is not a technical one ? If you have a setup issue, please post details so we can help you. If not, stop wasting our time. The FSSTND is being pased out by most ditributions, the standard to look at is the FHS.Incidentally, /opt/usr/X11R6/bin/ and /opt/bin are both the wrong location: the canonical location should be /opt//bin/ for an Xserver distributed by a third party. ragOO> I want this thread continued here not 'coz I have been vetoed ragOO> by two members of this list but on its own merit. Well, I do not have the power to veto anyone, but this is off topic for Linux-india, hence I am moving this to LIG. manoj -- Linux is obsolete Andrew Tanenbaum Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C fingerprint = 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 02:47:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id CAA13040 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:47:43 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id CAA13036 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:47:30 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01545 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:17:12 +0530 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:17:12 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <87zovr58hj.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Manoj, Before I comment here, let me point out that I was (and still am) addressing the way *Ragoo* strafes the LI lists with something he has little understanding of to begin with, and nothing to gain with. I think my last para made that abundantly clear. I *do* have issues with RMS and GPL, but they have nothing to do with you or the Debian community - in fact they are focussed totally on fringe-prophets like Ragoo who have nothing better to do that get other people riled. I do *not* equate Debian with RMS and GPL. On 4 Dec 1999, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > >>"Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: > > Actually, they use the perfectly capitalistic concept of > intellectual property and copyright law to achieve what they believe > is a protection of the end user. So did the Russians and the East Germans. Except that there is no protection involved. I object to that term. If you want to defend it, explain Ragoo's "Rs.60" post to me. > > Atul> Invoking the holy name of GPL everytime someone makes/talks > Atul> money is a sure-fire way of killing the concept > Atul> altogether. There are realities that are at work here, and GPL > Atul> isn't playing the game by the rules. > > Rubish. Shoe me where there is a clause in the GPL that says > you can't charge what you wish for your GPL'd software. The artistic > licence has an (unenforceable) no charge clause, but not the GPL. Again, what does this have to do with Ragoo's "Rs.60" attitude? > I must say this is FUD. You are entitled to your opinion on this, as I am to mine. > > Atul> To top that, the "hippo-crazy" [sic] angle is strong, too. Even > Atul> RMS had no hassles with accepting money for his work > > As I said, there is nothing under the GPL, or in RMS's > statements, that is against charging money. Red Hat has a market > capitalization of Billions selling essentially GPL'd software. Yes, RH is making money - and hence RH is the devil and "The Microsoft of the Linux world". (whoah - I just drained by sarcasm barrel on that one - excuse me while I refill). > Atul> (ironically part-sponsored by Microsoft), yet brutally mauls > Atul> anyone who remotely stands a chance of making a bit of money > Atul> with his work. > > Quote chapter and verse please. You are bordering on slander. That's OK. Sue me. RMS will be in Bangalore next month, he will have ample opportunity to do so. I am not going to turn LIG into a historical archive. > Atul> And he drives people who lack a cause of their own into a > > That is something I have rarely been accused of. Exactly, now we are getting to be on the same page - I am not talking about you! I am talking about an attitude problem being exhibited by an individual, follwoing the preachings of his Guru, whether this was the desired effect RMS had in mind or not. > Atul> frenzy, which results in posts of the type we get subjected to > Atul> every 3 months or so (dependent on the phase of the moon and > Atul> other things, I guess). > > Taking the low road, I see. Yes I will. Sometimes, one simply has to stoop to the other person's level to look him in the eye to tell him something. > Atul> I see no sense at all in this approach. The whole idea behind > Atul> OpenSource is the liberal-minded attitude that goes with > Atul> it. GPL and RMS's strife-riddled, politically motivated > Atul> "comments" on how the industry should evolve (in his own way of > Atul> thinking) is turning away far too many people for comfort. > > The GPL is an integral part of the DFSG, and its offspring, > the OSD. GPL as a concept is not bad - it's interpretation and application is. Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital - that does not make him responsible for the Russian economic situation or the (lack) of rights people have there. However Stalin and his merry (?) men are a different proposition. > Personally, even Corel is trying to play fast and loose with > the licence terms (did you know about a half dozen or so Debian > developers are now legally barred from using the Debian based Corel > Linux?) Yep, I am aware of that - I read Bruce's posts. I don;t want to get into words over that, but it appears to me that Corel Linux is an example of GPL-application gone bad. > Atul> RMS seems to be hellbent on making Linux the bad boy, while at > Atul> the same time desperately trying to latch onto the evergrowing > Atul> popularity of Linux. > > No. He merely points out that the Linux kernel uses a lot of > components of the GNU system, and in his opinion, the GNU project > should be attributed to. > > Sounds reasonable to me. It *is* reasonable, but what is not is RMS's way of trying to *enforce* this acknowledgement - complete with the antics, the staged "protest speecheds, the embarrasment of an entire community, etc. > Atul> What stops him from *finally* getting Hurd into a usable shape > Atul> so that he can have his own "free" kernel? > > We are working on it. Stay tuned for Debian GNU/HURD, to be > along side Debian GNU/Linux. > > The HURD is several decades ahead of UNIX based Linux OS -- > and cutting edge research operating systems take time to > stabilize. Linux, after all, is based on 30 year old technology. The > HURD is far newer. JESUS CHRIST, MANOJ! YOU SOUND LIKE MICROSOFT! WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP THIS INSTANT! > You mean they were too stupid to understand the licence they > were releasing their code under? How dumb you think we are? Did I specifically mention "Manoj Srivasatava *anywhere* in my post? And are you responsible for all of the GNU utilities? Now, now..... > This is just as bad -- you castigate a whole philosophy > because of one individual. Shall I remind you Ragoo is an indian as > well as a GNU lover? Shall I say the same thing about indians just on > this one example? Sorry friend, you tried that approach on me earlier this year. I apologised then, I am not apologising now. Ragoo is an individual first, and responsible for his actions (however irresponsible they may be). He feels that he is furthering the cause of RMS, GNU and GPL by being obnoxious and emulating RMS's antics. If Kevin Mitnick ever gets out of jail and makes his own distro (Mitnix?), Ragoo will be the first to climb on the bandwagon - *that's* the kind of guy he is. > Logic, whre is thy sting? Dunno, should we have a beer and try and figure it out? > > Atul> RMS's stand *used* to be (this may have changed) that software > Atul> should be free, services should be charged. > > > Oh god, not again. "FREE AS IN SPEECH, NOT FREE AS IN BEER" Hey, don't carry coals to Newcastle! I am completely aware of the Speech/Beer arguement and have used it often enough myself! My point (as I hinted at in the same sentence) is that it *used* to be about free software (free as in free as a bird) but seems to be focussing now on "closed/paid software is bad". > I give up. I am dissappointed at the amount of ignorance and > bigotry displayed in this post. As I am in the (what appears to be natural) assumption that I was talking about you and your fellow Debian developers, which I was not. I am surprised that you felt attacked by my post. > Atul> but how does that relate to Ragoo's comments on people paying > Atul> Rs.60 for food at a ILUG meet? > > Could it be because he is indian? That is just as logical as > your accusation. I give up. I am dissappointed at the amount of ignorance and bigotry displayed in this post. > So you take it out on poor innocent, GPL lovers. IMHO, this > post is equally distruptive as Ragoo's, and from a far more > unexpected corner. Uh, actually not. I take on the mindless, subserviant, confused and disruptive interpreters of GPL who have nothing better to do than make life miserable for others. > I really expected better from you. Mea Culpa. Ah, I am one-up on you. I fully expected both this post of yours and your reply to Arun - half of the stuff (including the intro to this message here) was written several hours ago in anticipation of your post that I *knew* was coming. So *I* am not disappointed. Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 04:01:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id EAA13750 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:01:34 -0800 Received: from bgl2.vsnl.net.in (bgl2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.46]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id EAA13746 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:01:29 -0800 Received: from active.vsnl.net.in ([202.54.86.239]) by bgl2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA16263 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:22:59 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19991204172644.00694f08@202.54.12.47> X-Sender: active@202.54.12.47 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:27:42 +0500 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org From: Active Technologies Subject: on-going mud slinging match Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi All, This mail has reference to the recent mud-slinging match [Message from RMS] currently on in the Linux India General list. You supposedly senior and presumably well informed Linux guys are definitely not sending out the right message to newbies and somewhat-familiar-with-linuxers on this list. I joined the general list so that I could contribute to the community and I am sure most of us here would like to do the same. However, I am deeply disturbed with the recent posting. All the best ! and please don't bother to inform me about who won the one-up-manship award. But, I would be interested in knowing if and when the thread dies, so that we can all go back to doing some constructive activity. Sabir From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 04:36:21 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id EAA14003 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:36:21 -0800 Received: from sgi.com (sgi.SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id EAA13999 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:36:19 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com ([192.26.51.193]) by sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id EAA04036; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:36:16 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id EAA82308; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA78706; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:46:19 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA20928; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:03:14 +0530 (IST) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:03:14 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912041233.SAA20928@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Atul Chitnis Cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: References: <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Uh, I don't really see the connection between Ragoo's post and your diatribe against GPL and RMS. I'd understand your stand on hypocracy if RMS has been commissioned by MS to write some proprietary software for them. As it was, it was money which had nothing to do with software (or RMS' selling out of the GPL), and anyone would be well within their rights to accept money for their ``contributitons'' to the growth of the computer industry. Please don't twist facts around or give only half the facts to make your arguments sound more convincing. No one screams about anything when you make money. What /is/ appalling is the hypocrisy on the other side of the fence, things like Sun's Community Public License, where people pay lip service to be perceived as contributing to the Free Software paradigm which retaining as much of their proprietary control over the software as they can. Which reminds, where can I downlaod the source of that BBS package you wrote from? ;) BTW, just because people re- and mis-interpret a religion doesn't mean that the originator of the religion was talking through his hat. Enough crimes have been committed in the name of just about any major religion you care to name, but no one comes out and says that (e.g.) Christ or the Buddha was talking throrugh their hats. Do not pass the sins of the followers onto the leaders. Regards, -- Raju >>>>> "Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: Atul> On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Arun Sharma wrote: >> RMS and the GNU project have a very explicit agenda to be >> uncooperative with closed source commercial entities with the >> goal of completely replacing them with GPL'ed software (Note: >> this is not the same as free software). Atul> I hate to use this term here, but the approach by RMS and Atul> his followers is starkly communistic - not in the Marxian Atul> way, but in the "use the idealogy of communism to control Atul> and achieve one's goal" way used by Russia and East Germany. Atul> Invoking the holy name of GPL everytime someone makes/talks Atul> money is a sure-fire way of killing the concept Atul> altogether. There are realities that are at work here, and Atul> GPL isn't playing the game by the rules. Atul> To top that, the "hippo-crazy" [sic] angle is strong, Atul> too. Even RMS had no hassles with accepting money for his Atul> work (ironically part-sponsored by Microsoft), yet brutally Atul> mauls anyone who remotely stands a chance of making a bit of Atul> money with his work. And he drives people who lack a cause Atul> of their own into a frenzy, which results in posts of the Atul> type we get subjected to every 3 months or so (dependent on Atul> the phase of the moon and other things, I guess). Atul> I see no sense at all in this approach. The whole idea Atul> behind OpenSource is the liberal-minded attitude that goes Atul> with it. GPL and RMS's strife-riddled, politically motivated Atul> "comments" on how the industry should evolve (in his own way Atul> of thinking) is turning away far too many people for Atul> comfort. Atul> RMS seems to be hellbent on making Linux the bad boy, while Atul> at the same time desperately trying to latch onto the Atul> evergrowing popularity of Linux. What stops him from Atul> *finally* getting Hurd into a usable shape so that he can Atul> have his own "free" kernel? Atul> While it is true that Linux distros are built around GPL'd Atul> software, I should also point out that many of the people Atul> who wrote the software and GPL'd it were unaware of the Atul> politics associated with GPL, and how their work would be Atul> used to fight a bloody civil ware against their own people. Atul> A classic example of the damage being done is Ragoo's post - Atul> a mindless parroting of ideology without caring two hoots Atul> about the disruption and confusion being caused, or who gets Atul> hurt. "To make an omelette, you have to break eggs" seems to Atul> be the accepted approach - one that implies an uncaring Atul> attitude as well as an agenda. Atul> RMS's stand *used* to be (this may have changed) that Atul> software should be free, services should be charged. Noble Atul> in concept, but how does that relate to Ragoo's comments on Atul> people paying Rs.60 for food at a ILUG meet? It is this Atul> kind of mindless application of one's "religion" to Atul> something completely unrelated that completely disrupts an Atul> otherwise highly co-operative community such as Linux Atul> India. The same applies to arguments defending an openly Atul> political post talking about "GNU/Linux" by saying it was Atul> technical in nature. Atul> I do not normally post something like this, and I know that Atul> someone is already filling the tanks of his flamethrower in Atul> preperation of roasting my butt, but I am *SICK* of such Atul> uncaring, disruptive and frankly mindless posts as friend Atul> Ragoo chose to unleash on the poor unsuspecting Linux Atul> newbies in Linux India. Who needs the Blue Screen FUD Atul> Brigade when we can destroy ourselves this way, all on our Atul> own? Atul> Atul Atul> -------------------------------------------------------- Atul> Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Atul> Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | Atul> +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 Atul> -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 04:45:32 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id EAA14106 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:45:32 -0800 Received: from pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (pneumatic-tube.sgi.com [204.94.214.22]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id EAA14102 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:45:30 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (nodin.corp.sgi.com [192.26.51.193]) by pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id EAA07940; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:47:03 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id EAA75262; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA80720; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:55:50 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA20958; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:12:52 +0530 (IST) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:12:52 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912041242.SAA20958@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Arun Sharma Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Uh-huh, you got it all wrong. Sharing wealth which diminishes (or remains static) by sharing is communism. Sharing wealth which increases by sharing is called being a good citizen of the world. If I have a hundred rupees and give you fifty, the total amount of wealth in the world doesn't increase. On the other hand, if I have a program which saves me 2 hours a day in managing my appointments and share it with you, I increase the amount of wealth in the world by 2 man-hours per day without dimishing anything. See? -- Raju >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 12:43:03PM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: >> Next, it /is/ true that software is wealth, and making >> proprietary software is tantamount to reducing the amount of >> wealth in the world. Arun> That is communism in my book. In your view of the world, Arun> software, which you define as wealth should be free for Arun> all. In other words, having property is illegal. If this is Arun> not communism, what else is ? Arun> I would like to be in control of my wealth. If I please, Arun> I'll donate some of my wealth to others. But no one can Arun> force me to do that. >> Purely from a moral point of view, then, all software should be >> free. Arun> Impractical. >> If you make proprietary software, you are a hoarder, Arun> Let me ask you this - do you have a bank account ? >> and I for one will not encourage you in your selfish objectives >> by giving you the means to incorporate my code into your >> software. Arun> Who said anything is wrong with being selfish ? That's what Arun> drives capitalism. >> All code I write is GPL'd, and if you don't like the GPL you >> are free to use a (perhaps better, perhaps worse) >> implementation which follows a less (more?) restrictive >> license. Arun> (a) Sure I don't like GPL. But to be practical - Linux is Arun> the OS that best suits my needs today and from a practical Arun> point of view, it makes sense to contribute to it. Arun> (b) Even RMS admits that GPL is a *more* restrictive Arun> license. He just insists that it is more "free", for his Arun> definition of "free". >> Now comes the question of how programmers are to make money. I >> don't know whether anyone on this list has noticed, but the >> world is changing. MS, for example, has publicly announced >> their intent to completely change the focus of their company >> from software to services in a few years. Arun> MS still owes most, if not all of their money to closed Arun> software and will continue to make most of their money that Arun> way. Arun> I as a programmer, would like to design new things and Arun> implement them. That's what I'm good at and what I'd like Arun> to get paid for. I don't see anything immoral about it. If Arun> RMS has a problem with what I do, he can continue blowing Arun> his horn (which is drying up whatever respect he had, due to Arun> his technical excellence) and I'll write BSD licensed code Arun> and will tell others, using whatever forum is available to Arun> me to do the same. >> I don't know of any large computer hardware vendor who is not >> focussing on services to drive their revenues (IBM, of course, >> has been doing that for years). The cost you pay for >> commercial software is split about 20-80 between the cost of >> developing that software and supporting it. Arun> Sure. We can all put on the consultant hat and continue to Arun> become service engineers. Who's going to write the software Arun> ? Where is the incentive ? Arun> And continuing the RMS philosophy, service engineers have Arun> knowledge. Knowledge is wealth. If you get paid for Arun> service, you're hoarding your knowledge. You selfish service Arun> engineer! >> In other words, if you don't recognise that fact that the >> economy of tomorrow will be driven by services rather than by >> products, you will find yourself shut out of a, ahem, new world >> order. Arun> Something like the Post PC era that's been coming for how Arun> many years now ? >> Given this, proprietary software will only play a small part >> in the IT revenues of the world. Most of the money will be >> made by people like Atul, Kishore and Gopi, who are offering >> services only, or primarily (can someone enlighten us on the >> split between service and product revenue of Exocore and/or C&B >> Consulting in the past year?) In past avatars I've earned tons >> of money (atleast by my standards :-) from writing, porting, >> packaging and supporting free (GPL'd) software, and I would be >> doing it today if I didn't have committments to my job. >> Arun> Ok. You can lecture me on how to make money using Arun> services. I'm *not* interested in being a service Arun> engineer. I'd like to do new things. In your scheme of Arun> things, I should be a service engineer by the day and a free Arun> software developer by the night ? Arun> I might as well write commercial software by the day and Arun> write free software for entertainment purposes. >> There is no dearth for money to be made and no need for >> programmers to starve. Even if you find that you are rotten at >> client interaction and cannot get directly into services, or >> you are only a hard-core programmer, resources like >> cosource.com and [what's the other one, forgotten it's name :-) >> ] will act as a mediator where people will pay you for the GPL >> software you develop to their specifications. Arun> Again the GNU agenda. Let me repeat GPL != free Arun> software. SourceXchange is headed by one of the Apache Arun> founders. If you see the Apache license (and the fact that Arun> apache.org runs on FreeBSD) you can get his inclination. >> Given all this, I see no reason to avoid the GPL virus. If you >> have faith in your capabilities to deliver quality products and >> services, if you read the papers and magazines, if you believe >> that the world should be a better place to live in for >> everyone, Arun> For everyone - including those of us, who believe in and Arun> work in proprietary, closed source software companies. GPL Arun> doesn't accommadate us. >> if you have ever used a proprietary software and wondered, >> ``Why doesn't this do X the way I want X done?'', Arun> It's easy to shoot down Windows (the prime example of Arun> proprietary software) in a Linux crowd. Seriously, do you Arun> believe that it's going away in the next decade ? It has Arun> it's place. That's reality. Arun> NT just got a C2 certification, it beats Linux in Arun> performance benchmarks and usability. It's just that the Arun> code is owned by a overly agressive company and as a student Arun> of computer science, NT is not very interesting because of Arun> its closed nature. Arun> Technically, you can create a debian distribution around the Arun> NT kernel and Win32 GUI. It's just too expensive, Arun> uninteresting and un-heroic to do so. Cygnus almost does Arun> it. >> if you don't want to rely on any single organisation for your >> software support needs, then the GPL is the way to go. Arun> GPL is not a necessary condition. You can get support for Arun> Apache from many consultants for example. >> Any license with different objectives will only dilute the >> effort that all of us are making and lengthen the shift. Arun> A different license without the objective of "destroying Arun> closed source" is exactly what is needed. Arun> -Arun Arun> PS: Before we go too deep into this, can someone verify that Arun> this is not a hoax ? I couldn't see the RMS posting on Arun> debian-user archives. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 04:55:35 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id EAA14148 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:55:35 -0800 Received: from deliverator.sgi.com (deliverator.sgi.com [204.94.214.10]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id EAA14144 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:55:33 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (nodin.corp.sgi.com [192.26.51.193]) by deliverator.sgi.com (980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id EAA14481; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:51:14 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id EAA73844; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA80480; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:05:43 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA20984; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:22:43 +0530 (IST) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:22:43 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912041252.SAA20984@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Atul Chitnis Cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: References: <87zovr58hj.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Atul, stop trying to hide behind paper screens. You deliberately brought in an attack on RMS and the GPL with one para about Ragoo at the end, and now you claim that you were talking about Ragoo all the time? Wow, that's a cool one! If you want to talk about the GPL and RMS, be a man and admit to your statements. In other words, put up or ... Regards, -- Raju >>>>> "Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: Atul> Manoj, Before I comment here, let me point out that I was Atul> (and still am) addressing the way *Ragoo* strafes the LI Atul> lists with something he has little understanding of to begin Atul> with, and nothing to gain with. I think my last para made Atul> that abundantly clear. Atul> I *do* have issues with RMS and GPL, but they have nothing Atul> to do with you or the Debian community - in fact they are Atul> focussed totally on fringe-prophets like Ragoo who have Atul> nothing better to do that get other people riled. I do *not* Atul> equate Debian with RMS and GPL. Atul> On 4 Dec 1999, Manoj Srivastava wrote: >> >>"Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: >> >> Actually, they use the perfectly capitalistic concept of >> intellectual property and copyright law to achieve what they >> believe is a protection of the end user. Atul> So did the Russians and the East Germans. Except that there Atul> is no protection involved. I object to that term. If you Atul> want to defend it, explain Ragoo's "Rs.60" post to me. >> Atul> Invoking the holy name of GPL everytime someone makes/talks Atul> money is a sure-fire way of killing the concept Atul> altogether. There are realities that are at work here, and Atul> GPL isn't playing the game by the rules. >> Rubish. Shoe me where there is a clause in the GPL that says >> you can't charge what you wish for your GPL'd software. The >> artistic licence has an (unenforceable) no charge clause, but >> not the GPL. Atul> Again, what does this have to do with Ragoo's "Rs.60" Atul> attitude? >> I must say this is FUD. Atul> You are entitled to your opinion on this, as I am to mine. >> Atul> To top that, the "hippo-crazy" [sic] angle is strong, Atul> too. Even RMS had no hassles with accepting money for his Atul> work >> As I said, there is nothing under the GPL, or in RMS's >> statements, that is against charging money. Red Hat has a >> market capitalization of Billions selling essentially GPL'd >> software. Atul> Yes, RH is making money - and hence RH is the devil and "The Atul> Microsoft of the Linux world". (whoah - I just drained by Atul> sarcasm barrel on that one - excuse me while I refill). Atul> (ironically part-sponsored by Microsoft), yet brutally mauls Atul> anyone who remotely stands a chance of making a bit of money Atul> with his work. >> Quote chapter and verse please. You are bordering on slander. Atul> That's OK. Sue me. RMS will be in Bangalore next month, he Atul> will have ample opportunity to do so. I am not going to turn Atul> LIG into a historical archive. Atul> And he drives people who lack a cause of their own into a >> That is something I have rarely been accused of. Atul> Exactly, now we are getting to be on the same page - I am Atul> not talking about you! I am talking about an attitude Atul> problem being exhibited by an individual, follwoing the Atul> preachings of his Guru, whether this was the desired effect Atul> RMS had in mind or not. Atul> frenzy, which results in posts of the type we get subjected Atul> to every 3 months or so (dependent on the phase of the moon Atul> and other things, I guess). >> Taking the low road, I see. Atul> Yes I will. Sometimes, one simply has to stoop to the other Atul> person's level to look him in the eye to tell him something. Atul> I see no sense at all in this approach. The whole idea Atul> behind OpenSource is the liberal-minded attitude that goes Atul> with it. GPL and RMS's strife-riddled, politically motivated Atul> "comments" on how the industry should evolve (in his own way Atul> of thinking) is turning away far too many people for Atul> comfort. >> The GPL is an integral part of the DFSG, and its offspring, >> the OSD. Atul> GPL as a concept is not bad - it's interpretation and Atul> application is. Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital - that does not Atul> make him responsible for the Russian economic situation or Atul> the (lack) of rights people have there. However Stalin and Atul> his merry (?) men are a different proposition. >> Personally, even Corel is trying to play fast and loose with >> the licence terms (did you know about a half dozen or so Debian >> developers are now legally barred from using the Debian based >> Corel Linux?) Atul> Yep, I am aware of that - I read Bruce's posts. I don;t want Atul> to get into words over that, but it appears to me that Corel Atul> Linux is an example of GPL-application gone bad. Atul> RMS seems to be hellbent on making Linux the bad boy, while Atul> at the same time desperately trying to latch onto the Atul> evergrowing popularity of Linux. >> No. He merely points out that the Linux kernel uses a lot of >> components of the GNU system, and in his opinion, the GNU >> project should be attributed to. >> >> Sounds reasonable to me. Atul> It *is* reasonable, but what is not is RMS's way of trying Atul> to *enforce* this acknowledgement - complete with the Atul> antics, the staged "protest speecheds, the embarrasment of Atul> an entire community, etc. Atul> What stops him from *finally* getting Hurd into a usable Atul> shape so that he can have his own "free" kernel? >> We are working on it. Stay tuned for Debian GNU/HURD, to be >> along side Debian GNU/Linux. >> >> The HURD is several decades ahead of UNIX based Linux OS -- and >> cutting edge research operating systems take time to >> stabilize. Linux, after all, is based on 30 year old >> technology. The HURD is far newer. Atul> JESUS CHRIST, MANOJ! YOU SOUND LIKE MICROSOFT! WASH YOUR Atul> MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP THIS INSTANT! >> You mean they were too stupid to understand the licence they >> were releasing their code under? How dumb you think we are? Atul> Did I specifically mention "Manoj Srivasatava *anywhere* in Atul> my post? And are you responsible for all of the GNU Atul> utilities? Now, now..... >> This is just as bad -- you castigate a whole philosophy because >> of one individual. Shall I remind you Ragoo is an indian as >> well as a GNU lover? Shall I say the same thing about indians >> just on this one example? Atul> Sorry friend, you tried that approach on me earlier this Atul> year. I apologised then, I am not apologising now. Ragoo is Atul> an individual first, and responsible for his actions Atul> (however irresponsible they may be). He feels that he is Atul> furthering the cause of RMS, GNU and GPL by being obnoxious Atul> and emulating RMS's antics. If Kevin Mitnick ever gets out Atul> of jail and makes his own distro (Mitnix?), Ragoo will be Atul> the first to climb on the bandwagon - *that's* the kind of Atul> guy he is. >> Logic, whre is thy sting? Atul> Dunno, should we have a beer and try and figure it out? >> Atul> RMS's stand *used* to be (this may have changed) that Atul> software should be free, services should be charged. >> >> >> Oh god, not again. "FREE AS IN SPEECH, NOT FREE AS IN BEER" Atul> Hey, don't carry coals to Newcastle! I am completely aware Atul> of the Speech/Beer arguement and have used it often enough Atul> myself! Atul> My point (as I hinted at in the same sentence) is that it Atul> *used* to be about free software (free as in free as a bird) Atul> but seems to be focussing now on "closed/paid software is Atul> bad". >> I give up. I am dissappointed at the amount of ignorance and >> bigotry displayed in this post. Atul> As I am in the (what appears to be natural) assumption that Atul> I was talking about you and your fellow Debian developers, Atul> which I was not. I am surprised that you felt attacked by my Atul> post. Atul> but how does that relate to Ragoo's comments on people Atul> paying Rs.60 for food at a ILUG meet? >> Could it be because he is indian? That is just as logical as >> your accusation. Atul> I give up. I am dissappointed at the amount of ignorance and Atul> bigotry displayed in this post. >> So you take it out on poor innocent, GPL lovers. IMHO, this >> post is equally distruptive as Ragoo's, and from a far more >> unexpected corner. Atul> Uh, actually not. I take on the mindless, subserviant, Atul> confused and disruptive interpreters of GPL who have nothing Atul> better to do than make life miserable for others. >> I really expected better from you. Mea Culpa. Atul> Ah, I am one-up on you. I fully expected both this post of Atul> yours and your reply to Arun - half of the stuff (including Atul> the intro to this message here) was written several hours Atul> ago in anticipation of your post that I *knew* was coming. Atul> So *I* am not disappointed. Atul> Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 06:02:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id GAA14502 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 06:02:06 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id GAA14498 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 06:01:56 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01925 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:31:16 +0530 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:31:16 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <199912041252.SAA20984@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Raj Mathur wrote: > Atul, stop trying to hide behind paper screens. You deliberately > brought in an attack on RMS and the GPL with one para about Ragoo at > the end, and now you claim that you were talking about Ragoo all the > time? Wow, that's a cool one! If you want to talk about the GPL and > RMS, be a man and admit to your statements. In other words, put up or I'll do the wise thing - I'll simply let you guys feel you are right, and that I am wrong. It gives *you* the satisfaction you are seeking, and gives *me* the satisfaction of knowing that I know what I was talking about, and that my viewpoint remains unchanged. All you will have achieved is making me shut up for the sake of the sanity of this list (which Sabir has already argued), and which was my original intention anyway. I know that this is a sad way of ending it, but it *does* give me the satisfaction of knowing that you can do nothing about it. Atul p.s. As for my BBS software and the source code - could we get real here? I wrote that software in 1987, long before I, you or anyone else here had ever heard of Linux (for obvious reasons). And it was never a GPL'd product, just like the Irix never was. Bring that up as a debate point is, to say the least, childish. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 06:19:02 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id GAA14561 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 06:19:02 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id GAA14557 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 06:18:56 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01988 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:48:48 +0530 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:48:21 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Indranil Das Gupta Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal In-Reply-To: <199912040743.NAA17513@cal.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Indranil Das Gupta wrote: > Well, I don't know....I mean ilug-cal, ilug-delhi have already > registered their TLDs and are having their individual web-sites, would > they be moving?? As far as ILUG-Calcutta is concerned, we are not > moving, not because we are against it. Rather, we get hosted for free, > have access to majordomo servers to run our LUG lists -- again for > free. But most importantly, because we wouldn't leave our host Russell > McOrmand, has been a big help to us at every point. Heck, no one is *forcing* the ILUG's to move! ;-) In fact, if you are comfortable with the place you are in, please stay there! Just provide us an IP address to point calcutta.linux-india.org to (the IP address of ilug-cal.org), so that some kind of uniformity is maintained - people who want to find to see the site of any ILUG can just go to .linux-india.org, e.g. calcutta.linux-india.org, which would take them to your ilug-cal.org site. I would like to move the Bangalore ILUG site to bangalore.linux-india.org for several reasons - one being uniformity, and the second being that it is currently hosted on my company's site, which doesn't look right (we don't own ilug-bangalore!). We would gladly pay Bhavin for space, which *is* why I brought this up. Sounds OK? Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 10:28:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA16202 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:28:33 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA16198 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:28:29 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id MAA05550; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:08:03 -0600 X-Time: Sat Dec 4 12:08:00 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: Atul Chitnis Cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 04 Dec 1999 12:08:00 -0600 In-Reply-To: Atul Chitnis's message of "Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:17:12 +0530 (IST)" Message-ID: <87n1rq60lb.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 147 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, >>"Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: Atul> Before I comment here, let me point out that I was (and still Atul> am) addressing the way *Ragoo* strafes the LI lists with Atul> something he has little understanding of to begin with, and Atul> nothing to gain with. I think my last para made that abundantly Atul> clear. As far as that goes, I agre with you. It was not clear to me from that post that your remarks were restricted to ragoos mail. Atul> On 4 Dec 1999, Manoj Srivastava wrote: >> >>"Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: >> >> Actually, they use the perfectly capitalistic concept of >> intellectual property and copyright law to achieve what they believe >> is a protection of the end user. Atul> So did the Russians and the East Germans. Except that there is no Atul> protection involved. I object to that term. If you want to defend it, Atul> explain Ragoo's "Rs.60" post to me. Umm, I contend that there may well be protection involved, and there may be uninformed people with misplaced enthusiam engaging in inappropriate behaviour. These are not mutually exclusive, you know. As an anecdotal support for my belief, I offer the objective C support in gcc as an example: A certain company added Objective C support, ad one of their employees later confessed that it was the GPL that made them offer the enhancement to the community rather than selling it. (I know this is not proof, and anyone can come up with anecdotes. I shall let you decide how far to trust this story, after saying that I talked to the employee in question in person). This is a measure of ``protection'', in my opinion. >> Shoe me where there is a clause in the GPL that says >> you can't charge what you wish for your GPL'd software. The artistic >> licence has an (unenforceable) no charge clause, but not the GPL. Atul> Again, what does this have to do with Ragoo's "Rs.60" attitude? Umm -- I don't defend idiotic posts like that. I shall, however, attempt to defend the GPL, and richard, since I do, to an extent, agree with them (I do not agree with richard that proprietary sofware is evil) Atul> Yes, RH is making money - and hence RH is the devil and "The Atul> Microsoft of the Linux world". (whoah - I just drained by Atul> sarcasm barrel on that one - excuse me while I refill). Actually, Richard never said that -- but since RH does sell proprietary software, one can say that by extension RH is also engaging in evil practices, if you take RMS's more incendiary statements. However, I, and a lot of other people who espouse the GPL, do not fully endorse RMS's views. We think that the views keep the rest of us honest, and help to keep the rest of us from straying from the path ;-) ;-) >> Quote chapter and verse please. You are bordering on slander. Atul> That's OK. Sue me. RMS will be in Bangalore next month, he will Atul> have ample opportunity to do so. I am not going to turn LIG Atul> into a historical archive. Oh, good. Just listen to him. Go there with an open mind. You probably won't agree to all of what he says. My impression of richard is like my impression of Gandhi -- I respect what they did, I agree with most of their beliefs (and I respect their integrity even for things I do not agree with). I would not, and could not, go to the extent and make the sacrifices either have made for their beliefs. If you examine either belief system, they are internally consistent. Both men had flaws (I am less than enamoured of some aspects of both their personal interactions). Atul> It *is* reasonable, but what is not is RMS's way of trying to Atul> *enforce* this acknowledgement - complete with the antics, the Atul> staged "protest speecheds, the embarrasment of an entire Atul> community, etc. Oh yes, I agree. Richard is his own worst enemy. Ignore, for the moment, his tactics, and look at the message: as we agreed, the message is reasonable, the delivery stinks. Richard is impossible Atul> What stops him from *finally* getting Hurd into a usable shape Atul> so that he can have his own "free" kernel? >> >> We are working on it. Stay tuned for Debian GNU/HURD, to be >> along side Debian GNU/Linux. >> >> The HURD is several decades ahead of UNIX based Linux OS -- >> and cutting edge research operating systems take time to >> stabilize. Linux, after all, is based on 30 year old technology. The >> HURD is far newer. Atul> JESUS CHRIST, MANOJ! YOU SOUND LIKE MICROSOFT! WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT WITH Atul> SOAP THIS INSTANT! Stop for a moment. I am not propogandizing. (Nor do I use the HURD). This was just a statement of fact. Is the HURD useable at the moment? No. Is it going to be in the near future? No. Do I contribute to it? No. Is it a contender for a useable OS at the moment? No. But it is cutting edge OS reasearch material. The concept of having people on the machine at the same time, one presented with a Linux like OS, one with *Bsd front ends, one with MacOS, is new. There are no built in device drivers, and need for a super user: Each user can bring in their own versions for resources they own. So, there is no root: and only security is required to access what one owns, and if you wish to share access/resources. There are translators (I am fuzzy on this) >> Could it be because he is indian? That is just as logical as >> your accusation. Atul> I give up. I am dissappointed at the amount of ignorance and bigotry Atul> displayed in this post. ;-) Atul> So *I* am not disappointed. ;-) manoj -- Corry's Law: Paper is always strongest at the perforations. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C fingerprint = 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 10:28:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA16222 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:28:58 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA16218 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:28:54 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id MAA05959; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:21:11 -0600 X-Time: Sat Dec 4 12:21:10 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: Active Technologies Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: on-going mud slinging match References: <3.0.32.19991204172644.00694f08@202.54.12.47> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 04 Dec 1999 12:21:10 -0600 In-Reply-To: Active Technologies's message of "Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:27:42 +0500" Message-ID: <87iu2e5zzd.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 77 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I must disagree with your micharacterization of recent activity on this mailing list. Where you say mud slinging, I see impassioned debate by people who feel stronly about a subject, and who respect each other. Where did you see ad hominem attacks? Where did you see long lasting, hurtful labels people are supposedly flinging at each other? Where is the mud? I think that restring this list to a passionless, politically correct list where no one engages in a healthy debate is harmful to the community. I have far more heated discussions with my wife ;-) I would think that the people in the community can take a little debate. I think it actually helps the new comers to see that there can be differences of opinion, and dissent, in the community, and we can still respect each other. And each others views. Shielding people from the realities (indeed, the strengths) of fee software community does them a disservice. I think it helps the newcomers to see the various facets of a long time debate, and it allows them to make an informed decision. If you wish to contribute to the community, you should accept the fact, nay rejoice in the fact, that we can all be different, hold differing opinions, and can engage in the occasional debate with each other without coming to blows like children. If I may use a phrase that has been overtly (and humorously) used: I am dissapointed that Atul was swayed by your post, and has been dissuaded from enlightening the rest of us with his take on a central issue of the free software world. Lighten up, people. There is no flame war here. There is respectful dialog. We need such dialog, and the feeling of community that that engenders. I feel I know Atul better now than I did a few days ago -- He let down his hair and let us have a peek at his core beliefs. Dry and passionless (and, for this forum, pointless -- if you can't air your views in LIG, what good is this forum anyway?) discussion -- faugh. manoj Trying to learn who people are -- cause you can't have friends unless you know who they are >>"Active" == Active Technologies writes: Sabir> This mail has reference to the recent mud-slinging match Sabir> [Message from RMS] currently on in the Linux India General Sabir> list. You supposedly senior and presumably well informed Linux Sabir> guys are definitely not sending out the right message to Sabir> newbies and somewhat-familiar-with-linuxers on this list. Sabir> I joined the general list so that I could contribute to the Sabir> community and I am sure most of us here would like to do the Sabir> same. However, I am deeply disturbed with the recent Sabir> posting. All the best ! and please don't bother to inform me Sabir> about who won the one-up-manship award. But, I would be Sabir> interested in knowing if and when the thread dies, so that we Sabir> can all go back to doing some constructive activity. Sabir> Sabir -- Last night the power went out. Good thing my camera had a flash.... The neighbors thought it was lightning in my house, so they called the cops. Steven Wright Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C fingerprint = 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 10:46:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA16351 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:46:09 -0800 Received: from sgi.com (sgi.SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA16347 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:46:07 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com ([192.26.51.193]) by sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id KAA08668; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:46:04 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id KAA94804; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id XAA81960; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:56:20 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA21922; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 00:13:19 +0530 (IST) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 00:13:19 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912041843.AAA21922@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Atul Chitnis Cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: References: <199912041252.SAA20984@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: Atul> On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Raj Mathur wrote: >> Atul, stop trying to hide behind paper screens. You >> deliberately brought in an attack on RMS and the GPL with one >> para about Ragoo at the end, and now you claim that you were >> talking about Ragoo all the time? Wow, that's a cool one! If >> you want to talk about the GPL and RMS, be a man and admit to >> your statements. In other words, put up or Atul> I'll do the wise thing - I'll simply let you guys feel you Atul> are right, and that I am wrong. It gives *you* the Atul> satisfaction you are seeking, and gives *me* the Atul> satisfaction of knowing that I know what I was talking Atul> about, and that my viewpoint remains unchanged. In other words, you admit the folly of your ways :-) Great, I'm glad someone saw the light because of me! Atul> [snip] Atul> p.s. As for my BBS software and the source code - could we Atul> get real here? I wrote that software in 1987, long before Atul> I, you or anyone else here had ever heard of Linux (for Atul> obvious reasons). And it was never a GPL'd product, just Atul> like the Irix never was. Bring that up as a debate point is, Atul> to say the least, childish. It's never too late to GPL. The excuses you give for not GPL'ing a software which is completely your product (IRIX has source from over 100 different companies in it) could be subject to the same adverb that you are using :-) -- Raju From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 11:21:18 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA16742 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:21:18 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA16738 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:21:16 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18779 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:21:09 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:21:09 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Message-ID: <19991204112109.A18687@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> <87vh6f580v.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87vh6f580v.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 04:12:48AM -0600 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk I had a good nights sleep and I think all of us have made our points. The GPL vs others debate is not that simple a issue. We've all made our points. We respect each others decisions. And lets continue to use our own licenses and preach our own morals. Hey, I like Linus Torvalds on this one - don't complain about other people's licenses. Don't use their code if you don't like their license. But the competition to win over developers to whatever license camp you're in - will continue. So for the rest of this thread, I'll not address GPL in particular (because I feel I've made my point) - but other peripheral points. On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 04:12:48AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > > Arun> That is communism in my book. In your view of the world, > Arun> software, which you define as wealth should be free for all. In > > Free, as in openly accessible. Free, as in Librè. Equal > opportunity. It doesn't work that way in practice - because of selfishness. If I have Rs 5 in my pocket, I'll keep it there so that it is accessible only to me, as opposed to making it freely available to someone who is needier than me, to whom the value of Rs 5 is more than it is to me. Effectively an example of Raj's "increasing the wealth" argument. However, when the difference in needs crosses a threshold, philanthropy kicks in and sidelines selfishness. Lots of people contributed to the Orissa disaster fund for example. You may point out that I'm talking more about money here and not freedom and accessibility. But in practice, they're so interrelated that you can't talk about one without the other. There are several examples of making lots of money, by denying certain freedoms. I can also do paintings for great philanthropist 's house free of cost, while allowing people to make as many copies of the painting as they want and still get paid as much money as the artist , who makes money selling copyrighted paintings. But the number of painters philanthropists can accommadate will always be less than the number of painters selling their paintings. I'd rather be the painter who makes money selling his paintings and occassionally donate some to the public museum and teaching promising kids what I know free of cost. I'll deny anyone on this list the freedom of taking away my $1000 anyday and gain the freedom of flying out to the Carribean for a great vacation :-) -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 11:21:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA16760 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:21:23 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA16751 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:21:19 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id MAA07118; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:53:36 -0600 X-Time: Sat Dec 4 12:53:35 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Some aspects of the HURD From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 04 Dec 1999 12:53:36 -0600 Message-ID: <87aenq5yhb.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 42 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I found these points about the HURD intriguing. manoj it's compatible The Hurd provides a familiar programming and user environment. For all intents and purposes, the Hurd is a modern Unix-like kernel. The Hurd uses the GNU C Library, whose development closely tracks standards such as ANSI/ISO, BSD, POSIX, Single Unix, SVID, and X/Open. it's built to survive Unlike other popular kernel software, the Hurd has an object-oriented structure that allows it to evolve without compromising its design. This structure will help the Hurd undergo major redesign and modifications without having to be entirely rewritten. it's scalable The Hurd implementation is aggressively multithreaded so that it runs efficiently on both single processors and symmetric multiprocessors. The Hurd interfaces are designed to allow transparent network clusters (collectives), although this feature has not yet been implemented. it's extensible The Hurd is an attractive platform for learning how to become a kernel hacker or for implementing new ideas in kernel technology. Every part of the system is designed to be modified and extended. it's stable It is possible to develop and test new Hurd kernel components without rebooting the machine (not even accidentally). Running your own kernel components doesn't interfere with other users, and so no special system privileges are required. The mechanism for kernel extensions is secure by design: it is impossible to impose your changes upon other users unless they authorize them . -- You shall be rewarded for a dastardly deed. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print = 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 11:30:28 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA16832 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:30:28 -0800 Received: from blr.vsnl.net.in (blr.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.6]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA16828 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:30:23 -0800 Received: from indica (indica@PPP-181-23.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.181.23]) by blr.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA06630; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 00:53:28 +0530 (IST) From: Dakshinamurthy Karra Organization: Subex Systems Ltd. To: raju@sgi.com, Raj Mathur , Atul Chitnis Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 00:55:47 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain Cc: Linux India General List References: <199912041252.SAA20984@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <199912041843.AAA21922@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> In-Reply-To: <199912041843.AAA21922@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99120501002100.09719@indica> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 04 Dec 1999, Raj Mathur wrote: > In other words, you admit the folly of your ways :-) Great, I'm glad > someone saw the light because of me! > Keeping the discussion without making comments on individuals make us all more comfortable in taking part in discussion ;-) > It's never too late to GPL. The excuses you give for not GPL'ing a > software which is completely your product (IRIX has source from over > 100 different companies in it) could be subject to the same adverb > that you are using :-) > Hmm... does it really? I think GPL or any other form of license (including distributing only binaries) is the prerogative of the developer. -- KD From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 11:32:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA16862 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:32:37 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA16858 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:32:35 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18828 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:32:34 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:32:34 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Message-ID: <19991204113234.B18687@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <874sdz6nun.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <874sdz6nun.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 03:45:36AM -0600 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 03:45:36AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > > The BSDs were around long before Linux started. Whydo you > think they failed to provide the world with useful software? Cause > they do not care about community. The BSD licence is a reflection of > the elitist, iconoclastic creators of *BSDs. (a) Are you implying that BSDs didn't produce useful software ? It's certainly useful to me and to anyone who is using the Internet today. (b) Sure, certain people in the BSD camp were elitist and didn't think that computers can be used by ordinary people. That was their undoing. But that has nothing to do with the BSD license. (c) BSD people are less iconoclastic than Linux people are. See my next posting re: Hurd/technology/research. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 11:53:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA18002 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:53:33 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA17988 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:53:31 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18900 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:53:30 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:53:30 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Message-ID: <19991204115330.C18687@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <87zovr58hj.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87zovr58hj.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 04:02:48AM -0600 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 04:02:48AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > The HURD is several decades ahead of UNIX based Linux OS -- > and cutting edge research operating systems take time to > stabilize. Linux, after all, is based on 30 year old technology. The > HURD is far newer. (a) If you are implying that Hurd is better technology, because it is a microkernel, talk to Linus. He's known for his hatred of the concept to the extent of showing up on comp.os.linux.advocacy on a busy day when several top execs are trying to get him on phone :) He even accuses research people who were into microkernels as being either stupid or intellectually dishonest (to research micro kernels just to get funding). That's not to say - Linus is God and what he says must be the Bible attitude (I find this implication in popular press distasteful). My personal opinion is that micro kernels make sense on state of the art hardware where the cost of context switching is not high. But I'll trust Linus' judgement on what is good for Intel compatible hardware anyday, given his demonstrated ability to make good tradeoffs in simplicity vs performance. (Though I disagree with some of his choices) (b) Linux is the most iconoclastic OS around, in ignoring a lot of academic research in operating systems. CMU Mach has been the darling of academic research community for a whole decade. Yet, Linux hasn't incorporated anything from those research papers. In contrast, FreeBSD's virtual memory subsystem has been replaced with Mach's (ref: 4.4 BSD book by McKusick et al). BSDs are still very strong in academic research in US universities (though people are moving to Linux due to its omnipresence). The paper on IOLite which received the best technical paper award at the last SOSP (Symposium on OS principles) was based on BSD. There is work going on to implement a pthreads implementation using scheduler activations (Tom Anderson's PhD thesis), see the first reference in: http://docs.FreeBSD.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=71688+0+archive/1999/freebsd-arch/19991114.freebsd-arch I can't see any such activity on linux-kernel. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 12:05:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA22641 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:05:54 -0800 Received: (from thaths@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA22630 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:05:52 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:05:52 -0800 From: Sudhakar Chandrasekharan To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: [Announce] Web archive of LIG now available... Message-ID: <19991204120552.A21729@aunet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk The archive of LIG is not available at the following URL: http://lists.linux-india.org/cgi-bin/wilma/linux-india-general Thaths -- "If there were any justice, my face would be on a bunch of crappy merchandise" -- Homer J. Simpson From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 12:11:25 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA24588 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:11:25 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA24563 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:11:21 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id MAA06412; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:34:28 -0600 X-Time: Sat Dec 4 12:34:28 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: skhader@in.ibm.com Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Debian maintainer References: From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 04 Dec 1999 12:34:28 -0600 In-Reply-To: skhader@in.ibm.com's message of "Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:54:03 +0530" Message-ID: <87emd25zd7.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 56 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, >>"skhader" == skhader writes: skhader> Anyway the question I wanted to ask was how can I become a skhader> Debian Maintainer ? Hmm. Well, http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ch-start.html is the canonical place to start looking at what it would take to become a maintainer, and how to creaste a starting package (BTW: I personally prefer not to us the helper packages dh_make, and have examples people can work off in http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/rules/). The practical aspects that would concern you are: a) proving your identity. This requires either getting photostats of government identity papers (passports, drivers licences, etc) and faxing them in, or b) Getting a gpg key with a signature from a Debian developer. Also, the new maintainer team likes to call people, so a phone and times when you can be contacted there would be required. Unfortunately, the new maintainer process is rather in shambles at this point -- we are working on finding and training volunteers for the team, but it has yet to be resolved. The post from the project leader is below. manoj ---------------------------------------------------------------------- As you may have heard or even experienced yourself, Debian's new-maintainer team is currently not processing requests. The team wanted to resolve some problems they observed with the way Debian maintainership is current handled, and decided to close new-maintainer until these have been fixed. We are currently working on a new structure for handling new-maintainer requests, and hope to have this finished as soon as possible. There will be a proposal on this posted on the debian-devel list in the near future. Once the new structure is in place new-maintainer will be reopened, and we will make an announcement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- "And it should be the law: If you use the word `paradigm' without knowing what the dictionary says it means, you go to jail. No exceptions." David Jones @ Megatest Corporation Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C fingerprint = 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 13:39:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA25396 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:39:46 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA25392 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:39:44 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA19089; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:39:40 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:39:40 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Cc: ragu@vsnl.com Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Message-ID: <19991204133940.A19035@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <3848B321.762DCAF0@vsnl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <3848B321.762DCAF0@vsnl.com>; from Raghavendra Bhat on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 06:22:25AM +0000 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 06:22:25AM +0000, Raghavendra Bhat wrote: [ Moved to -general ] > There can only be one Linux and that is GNU/Linux. Why so ? Theoretically I can take the Linux kernel, port the BSD libc, commands and use the Intel compiler to make a BSD/Intel/Linux, which I prefer to call . Should be a 12 man month project. You probably wanted to say - the Linux that's shipped on Debian CDs should be called Debian GNU/Linux in your opinion (and your fellow debian project members) and that you'll continue to call it GNU/Linux and want others to do the same. I admire your ability to start a flame war with the least number of key strokes though :-) -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 14:37:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA25561 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:37:19 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA25557 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:37:16 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id QAA15690; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:32:00 -0600 X-Time: Sat Dec 4 16:31:59 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <874sdz6nun.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204113234.B18687@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 04 Dec 1999 16:31:59 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:32:34 -0800" Message-ID: <8766ye5odc.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 47 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 03:45:36AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: >> >> The BSDs were around long before Linux started. Whydo you >> think they failed to provide the world with useful software? Cause >> they do not care about community. The BSD licence is a reflection of >> the elitist, iconoclastic creators of *BSDs. Arun> (a) Are you implying that BSDs didn't produce useful software ? It's Arun> certainly useful to me and to anyone who is using the Arun> Internet today. No. I am implying that lots of commercial companies merely ripped off the BSD fee work (Sun, Digital, Data General), branded it, and no benefit accrued to the community from these advances. Under the GPL, there is a possibility that would not have been the case. It is my considered opinion that had the *BSD's been under the GPL, it would have been the *BSD's that were leading the free *NIX movement, not the johnny come lately Linux. Arun> (b) Sure, certain people in the BSD camp were elitist and didn't think Arun> that computers can be used by ordinary people. That was Arun> their undoing. But that has nothing to do with the BSD Arun> license. Actually, this is a bit of an understatement. I tried *BSD communities before I migrated to the then technically inferior Linux; and I have little reason to believe there has been much of a change. Just ask Theo ;-) Arun> (c) BSD people are less iconoclastic than Linux people are. See my next Arun> posting re: Hurd/technology/research. That has not been my personal experience. manoj -- Fortune's Real-Life Courtroom Quote #19: Q: Doctor, how many autopsies have you performed on dead people? A: All my autopsies have been performed on dead people. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 14:49:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA25595 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:49:16 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA25590 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:49:13 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id QAA15972; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:38:35 -0600 X-Time: Sat Dec 4 16:38:34 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: <87zovr58hj.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204115330.C18687@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 04 Dec 1999 16:38:34 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:53:30 -0800" Message-ID: <87zovq49hx.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 55 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> (a) If you are implying that Hurd is better technology, because it is Arun> a microkernel, I am not. I have posted what I find intriguing in the HURD elsewhere in this list. Arun> talk to Linus. He's known for his hatred of the concept to Arun> the extent of showing up on comp.os.linux.advocacy on a Arun> busy day when several top execs are trying to get him on Arun> phone :) So what? I respect Linux, and heis certainly a respected programmer, but his credentials in CS research are sadly lacking. And just becuase he has succesfully developed a UNIX like OS, borrowing heavily on established technology, does not give him hte last word on cutting edge CS concepts. He does not even have a doctrate i the field that is not honorary. Arun> He even accuses research people who were into microkernels as being Arun> either stupid or intellectually dishonest (to research micro kernels Arun> just to get funding). Heh. When I listen to an undergrad about post doctorate research ... Arun> That's not to say - Linus is God and what he says must be the Bible Arun> attitude (I find this implication in popular press Arun> distasteful). Good. We agree here. Arun> (b) Linux is the most iconoclastic OS around, in ignoring a lot of Arun> academic research in operating systems. CMU Mach has been the darling Arun> of academic research community for a whole decade. Yet, Linux hasn't Arun> incorporated anything from those research papers. One word: as you said: Linus. [SNIP a lot of BSD updates of essentially UNIX oriented technology] Arun> I can't see any such activity on linux-kernel. Have a look at what the HURD has under the hood. (And I am not even talking of the Mach microkernel -- there is talk of replacing the aging Mach MK by something newer). manoj -- Let's do it. Gary Gilmore, to his firing squad Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 14:49:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA25611 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:49:19 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA25594 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:49:15 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id QAA16139; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:46:47 -0600 X-Time: Sat Dec 4 16:46:46 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> <87vh6f580v.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204112109.A18687@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 04 Dec 1999 16:46:46 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:21:09 -0800" Message-ID: <87u2ly4949.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 52 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 04:12:48AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: >> Arun> That is communism in my book. In your view of the world, Arun> software, which you define as wealth should be free for all. In >> >> Free, as in openly accessible. Free, as in Librè. Equal >> opportunity. Arun> It doesn't work that way in practice - because of selfishness. Really? So there is no code being given away? there is no fee OS? There are no free CD's given away at trade shows and to LUGs? Does not work that way in practice? I must be living in an impractical world ;-) Arun> If I have Rs 5 in my pocket, I'll keep it there so that it is Arun> accessible only to me, as opposed to making it freely available Arun> to someone who is needier than me, to whom the value of Rs 5 is Arun> more than it is to me. Effectively an example of Raj's Arun> "increasing the wealth" argument. Arun> However, when the difference in needs crosses a threshold, Arun> philanthropy kicks in and sidelines selfishness. Lots of people Arun> contributed to the Orissa disaster fund for example. I think there is a subtle contradiction here. Arun> You may point out that I'm talking more about money here and not Arun> freedom and accessibility. But in practice, they're so interrelated Arun> that you can't talk about one without the other. There are several Arun> examples of making lots of money, by denying certain freedoms. I think the free software movement has proved this thesis incorrect. Tell me again why I spend about 25hours a week on Debian, instead of billing more hours at my hourly rate (it is not as if I can't get the work). Tell the people whose work we all use daily who wrote the code under DFSG free licences why all that is so very impractical. manoj eaegr for teh the explanation -- Do you know the difference between education and experience? Education is what you get when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't. Pete Seeger Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 15:21:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA25809 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:21:48 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA25805 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:21:45 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19299 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:21:38 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:21:38 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Message-ID: <19991204152138.A19240@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> <87vh6f580v.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204112109.A18687@sharmas.dhs.org> <87u2ly4949.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87u2ly4949.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 04:46:46PM -0600 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 04:46:46PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > Arun> It doesn't work that way in practice - because of selfishness. > > Really? So there is no code being given away? there is no fee > OS? There are no free CD's given away at trade shows and to LUGs? > Does not work that way in practice? I must be living in an > impractical world ;-) > My statements still hold good. Free OSes make up a miniscule percentage of the OSes in use. Even in the wettest dreams of Linus Torvalds and Bob Young, they're not gunning for more than 15% of the market. That's analogous to the amount of money I earn and the amount I donate. > Arun> If I have Rs 5 in my pocket, I'll keep it there so that it is > Arun> accessible only to me, as opposed to making it freely available > Arun> to someone who is needier than me, to whom the value of Rs 5 is > Arun> more than it is to me. Effectively an example of Raj's > Arun> "increasing the wealth" argument. > > Arun> However, when the difference in needs crosses a threshold, > Arun> philanthropy kicks in and sidelines selfishness. Lots of people > Arun> contributed to the Orissa disaster fund for example. > > I think there is a subtle contradiction here. > Which is ? > Arun> You may point out that I'm talking more about money here and not > Arun> freedom and accessibility. But in practice, they're so interrelated > Arun> that you can't talk about one without the other. There are several > Arun> examples of making lots of money, by denying certain freedoms. > > I think the free software movement has proved this thesis incorrect. > What "movement" ? I repeat a quote from an earlier posting on this list Here is an interesting thought from a FreeBSD Vs Linux thread on the net: > Has anyone considered that now might be the time to stop associating > ourselves with the open source "movement" -- or any movement, for that > matter, and simply present ourselves as a viable peer of the commercial > operating systems? Presenting ourselves as the production refinement of > the research that finished in the 80's at Berkley seems a much better > (and salable) spin than presenting ourselves as 'more open' than Linux > or squabbling over licensing and the desktop. > Tell me again why I spend about 25hours a week on Debian, > instead of billing more hours at my hourly rate (it is not as if I > can't get the work). > > Tell the people whose work we all use daily who wrote the code > under DFSG free licences why all that is so very impractical. Perhaps you got indoctrinated with all the GNU politics from RMS. I was at some point too - and I don't consider myself particularly gullible. I use free software because it is convenient and does what I want. It may not be the best thing around - but it's cheap, I can learn from it and I can modify it to suit my needs. I don't have any greater agenda or a religious belief that this is going to change the world. And I don't spend 25 hours a week coding for any operating system - I just do it as a hobby. I sniff out for interesting things and some times, I spend considerable amounts of time doing something (to the extent that my folks start screaming at me), not because I want to change the world, kill Microsoft or wipe out closed source software, but because I enjoy it. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 15:32:55 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA25957 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:32:55 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA25953 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:32:53 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19339 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:32:50 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:32:50 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Message-ID: <19991204153250.B19240@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <874sdz6nun.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204113234.B18687@sharmas.dhs.org> <8766ye5odc.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <8766ye5odc.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 04:31:59PM -0600 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 04:31:59PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > No. I am implying that lots of commercial companies merely > ripped off the BSD fee work (Sun, Digital, Data General), branded it, > and no benefit accrued to the community from these advances. > But it didn't hurt any of the developers in any way. They were just as free. Empire building was not their goal. > Under the GPL, there is a possibility that would not have been > the case. It is my considered opinion that had the *BSD's been under > the GPL, it would have been the *BSD's that were leading the free > *NIX movement, not the johnny come lately Linux. If you take the example of Sun, they reimplemented everything under SVR4 with AT&T. If *BSDs were GPL'ed, they would've rewritten it while throwing out all the code. This is what I call forced conversion. If Sun doesn't want to release code, let them keep it. > > Arun> (b) Sure, certain people in the BSD camp were elitist and didn't think > Arun> that computers can be used by ordinary people. That was > Arun> their undoing. But that has nothing to do with the BSD > Arun> license. > > Actually, this is a bit of an understatement. I tried *BSD > communities before I migrated to the then technically inferior Linux; > and I have little reason to believe there has been much of a > change. Just ask Theo ;-) I don't know any of the (Free)BSD developers personally - but I like their organization - what appears to be merit based core team structure, as opposed to dictatorships. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 19:16:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id TAA26719 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:16:58 -0800 Received: from deliverator.sgi.com (deliverator.sgi.com [204.94.214.10]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA26715 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:16:56 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (nodin.corp.sgi.com [192.26.51.193]) by deliverator.sgi.com (980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id TAA19125; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:12:39 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id TAA11562; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:16:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id IAA82981; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:27:09 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23381; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:44:09 +0530 (IST) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:44:09 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912050314.IAA23381@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Arun Sharma Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <19991204112109.A18687@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> <87vh6f580v.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204112109.A18687@sharmas.dhs.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Arun, why do you insist on misinterpreting my statements in public fora? The example that you give of ostensibly ``Raj's increasing the weath argument'' is nothing of the kind! The whole point I was trying to make was that when you share material stuff, the total amount of wealth in the world does not increase. OTOH, when you share intangibles WHICH DO NOT COST YOU BY SHARING the total amount of wealth DOES increase while not reducing your personal wealth. Let me give an example in words of 2 syllables: 1. I make a map program which helps my wife avoid traffic jams at peak traffic hours. 2. Because of this program my wife manages to lessen her travelling time by 1 hour/per on the average. 3. The total amount of wealth in the world has increased by 1 man-hour/day (person-hour? Bah, let me be labelled a sexist). 4. I put the program up on an FTP site for downloading. 5. 5000 people download and use this program. 6. Each person manages to save 1 hour/day as a result. 7. Now the total amount of wealth in the world has gone up by 5001 man-hours/day. Note the important points here: 1. My wife's gains are still hers. If she gained 1 hour/day by using the program exclusively, it does not get reduced to 0.0002 hour/day when 5000 people use the program. See the difference between software and money? 2. It does not cost me anything to upload the program to an FTP server. So please refrain from equating sharing of software, documents and information with philanthropy. Philanthropy is when you give away something which lessens your personal wealth. Sharing (and the spirit of the GNU) is when you give away something which still remains with you and also helps other people. I hope I managed to make the difference clear. If not, just go ahead and send another misguided missile^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmessage and I shall explain again at great length -- that's what you all really want, right? ;-) Regards, -- Raju >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> [snip] Arun> It doesn't work that way in practice - because of Arun> selfishness. If I have Rs 5 in my pocket, I'll keep it there Arun> so that it is accessible only to me, as opposed to making it Arun> freely available to someone who is needier than me, to whom Arun> the value of Rs 5 is more than it is to me. Effectively an Arun> example of Raj's "increasing the wealth" argument. Arun> However, when the difference in needs crosses a threshold, Arun> philanthropy kicks in and sidelines selfishness. Lots of Arun> people contributed to the Orissa disaster fund for example. Arun> You may point out that I'm talking more about money here and Arun> not freedom and accessibility. But in practice, they're so Arun> interrelated that you can't talk about one without the Arun> other. There are several examples of making lots of money, Arun> by denying certain freedoms. Arun> I can also do paintings for great philanthropist 's Arun> house free of cost, while allowing people to make as many Arun> copies of the painting as they want and still get paid as Arun> much money as the artist , who makes money selling Arun> copyrighted paintings. But the number of painters Arun> philanthropists can accommadate will always be less than the Arun> number of painters selling their paintings. Arun> I'd rather be the painter who makes money selling his Arun> paintings and occassionally donate some to the public museum Arun> and teaching promising kids what I know free of cost. Arun> I'll deny anyone on this list the freedom of taking away my Arun> $1000 anyday and gain the freedom of flying out to the Arun> Carribean for a great vacation :-) Arun> -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 19:27:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id TAA26770 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:27:07 -0800 Received: from sgi.com (sgi.SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA26766 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:27:05 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com ([192.26.51.193]) by sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id TAA07918; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:25:00 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id TAA04152; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id IAA82725; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:35:12 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23409; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:52:12 +0530 (IST) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:52:12 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912050322.IAA23409@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Dakshinamurthy Karra Cc: Atul Chitnis , Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <99120501002100.09719@indica> References: <199912041252.SAA20984@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <199912041843.AAA21922@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <99120501002100.09719@indica> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "KD" == Dakshinamurthy Karra writes: KD> [snip] >> It's never too late to GPL. The excuses you give for not >> GPL'ing a software which is completely your product (IRIX has >> source from over 100 different companies in it) could be >> subject to the same adverb that you are using :-) KD> Hmm... does it really? I think GPL or any other form of KD> license (including distributing only binaries) is the KD> prerogative of the developer. The point was about making the software available for free, under whatever license, even binary-only. IMHO people who refuse to make their defunct products available for free, even as an example of how to do or not do things, should re-examine their own moral position before taking stands on GPL vs non-GPL issues. Of course, I was talking about Bill Gates all this time, so don't accuse me of flaming anyone, OK? *taking leaf out of others' books :-) * KD> -- KD Regards, -- Raju From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 19:38:36 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id TAA26810 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:38:36 -0800 Received: from bgl2.vsnl.net.in (bgl2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.46]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA26806 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:38:32 -0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (IDENT:root@PPP-190-197.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.190.197]) by bgl2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00734 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:59:58 +0530 (IST) Received: (from mrinal@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01020 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:11:38 +0530 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:11:38 +0530 From: Mrinal Kalakrishnan To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Message-ID: <19991205091138.A750@india.com> Mail-Followup-To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org References: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com>; from thaths@netscape.com on Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 03:44:35PM -0800 X-Operating-System: Red Hat Linux release 6.1 (Cartman) X-Kernel: Kernel 2.2.12-20 on an i686 X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 5.5 (1999 Sep 19, compiled Nov 28 1999 12:10:49) X-URL: http://listen.to/mrinal Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, OK, back to the "split" discussion.. ;-) Sudhakar Chandrasekharan typed: > + Most lists will be closed to posting by subscribers only. This will > prevent spamming. Hmm.. so will you be maintaining that extra "list" of non-subscribers email addresses who are allowed posting privileges? And will that be common for all the lists, or do I have to bug you for each one? :-) What's going to happen to the LI-digest? Is the digest going to be scrapped altogether, or is there going to be a digest list for each individual list? Or, a combined digest with messages from all lists? (I don't know if this is possible..) -- Mrinal Kalakrishnan (PGP:B1E86F5B) http://listen.to/mrinal - - - - = ( Redhat Linux 6.1 ) = - - - - = ( Kernel 2.2.12-20 ) = - - - - Magic Users do it with their hands. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 19:45:18 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id TAA26883 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:45:18 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA26879 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:45:15 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA19661 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:45:03 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:45:03 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Message-ID: <19991204194503.A19629@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> <87vh6f580v.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204112109.A18687@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912050314.IAA23381@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199912050314.IAA23381@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from Raj Mathur on Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 08:44:09AM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 08:44:09AM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: > wealth in the world does not increase. OTOH, when you share > intangibles WHICH DO NOT COST YOU BY SHARING the total amount of > wealth DOES increase while not reducing your personal wealth. Software is very tangible. Just like the information in a book is. Going by your philosophy, I should be allowed to photo copy all the books in the world. > Note the important points here: > > 1. My wife's gains are still hers. If she gained 1 hour/day by using > the program exclusively, it does not get reduced to 0.0002 hour/day > when 5000 people use the program. See the difference between software > and money? If you had in fact devised something that important, a lot of people would've readily paid you money to save that precious one hour a day. By giving it away for free, you've lost that money. It did decrease your personal wealth - indirectly. In practice however, if someone asks me the best way to get to M.G. Road, I don't mind telling them. > So please refrain from equating sharing of software, documents and > information with philanthropy. Philanthropy is when you give away > something which lessens your personal wealth. That is your definition of philanthropy. In my book, if a movie start goes on stage and donates the money to charity, she has commited an act of philanthropy through the loss of potential income. > Sharing (and the spirit > of the GNU) is when you give away something which still remains with > you and also helps other people. No doubt. But I can't be forced to share everything - especially if it is related to my profession. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 21:02:08 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA27190 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 21:02:08 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@[202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id VAA27186 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 21:02:01 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03024 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:31:47 +0530 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:31:47 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal In-Reply-To: <19991205091138.A750@india.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, Mrinal Kalakrishnan wrote: > OK, back to the "split" discussion.. ;-) Looks like a concept I can deal with in less than a 100 lines... ;-) > Hmm.. so will you be maintaining that extra "list" of non-subscribers > email addresses who are allowed posting privileges? And will that be > common for all the lists, or do I have to bug you for each one? :-) LI should become an announcement-only list, and the only posts on that will come from the list admins reporting on happenings around the lists (something like "your daily/weekly LI noo^H^Hews"), events, statistics, clippings, etc. Maybe announcements from ILUGs, too. Yes, that would mean that you need to send your post to an address meant to handle stuff like that, which will then be poked at by a real live human (possibly without a QuickCam in his bedroom) and possibly included in LI. But that's it - no discussions in LI. > What's going to happen to the LI-digest? Is the digest going to be > scrapped altogether, or is there going to be a digest list for each > individual list? Or, a combined digest with messages from all lists? > (I don't know if this is possible..) LID will probably die, but the other lists would all have digest options, so not to fear. You will probably be thankful for that, especially because it will give you an option *not* to receive a huge megabyte-sized LIG digest monster.... ;-) Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 22:30:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA28162 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:30:27 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@[202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA28158 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:30:17 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03277 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:59:50 +0530 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:59:50 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <199912041843.AAA21922@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, Raj Mathur wrote: > In other words, you admit the folly of your ways :-) Great, I'm glad > someone saw the light because of me! Sorry, actually it was more that I had my lights put out.... ;-) > It's never too late to GPL. The excuses you give for not GPL'ing a > software which is completely your product (IRIX has source from over > 100 different companies in it) could be subject to the same adverb > that you are using :-) Ummm, consider that there may be other reasons. In India, GPL is not a recognised license. I would not be able to enforce it in any way if someone were to take my code, only change the credits and republish it as his own. In fact prevailing Indian copyright laws would be in his favour, stating that once I make the source code public, it is public, period. But that was never the reason for not GPL'ing my code. The real reason is that it is a mess, badly coded, spagetti and unmaintainable. I know that opening it up would allow people to clean it up, but there are two issues here: 1. How many people here program in Pascal (Kala, put your hand down!) 2. I would have to face the ridicule that is bound to surface when people see my code from more than 10 years ago. I have written a lot of stuff since those days, mostly utilities, small apps, fancy script files, etc. and have *always* made the source code available. Not under GPL but under (what would amount to) the *BSD license. My real work is not in codeland, and I believe that it is as important as code - with the clear distinction that I have never had to cross words about the interpretation of a license that covers my advocacy and other activities..... ;-) Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 4 22:33:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA28181 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:33:23 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@[202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA28177 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:33:18 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03289 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:02:58 +0530 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:02:58 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <87n1rq60lb.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Manoj: You aren't playing fair! In reply to my post, you should have flamed my pants off. You didn't, so I can't reply! Unfair! You killed the thread! ;-) Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 01:25:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id BAA29401 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:25:09 -0800 Received: from pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (pneumatic-tube.sgi.com [204.94.214.22]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id BAA29397 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:25:06 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (nodin.corp.sgi.com [192.26.51.193]) by pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id BAA02883; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:26:35 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id BAA02445; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id OAA83998; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:33:32 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA24484; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:50:13 +0530 (IST) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:50:13 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912050920.OAA24484@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Arun Sharma Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <19991204194503.A19629@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> <87vh6f580v.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204112109.A18687@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912050314.IAA23381@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991204194503.A19629@sharmas.dhs.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 08:44:09AM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: >> wealth in the world does not increase. OTOH, when you share >> intangibles WHICH DO NOT COST YOU BY SHARING the total amount >> of wealth DOES increase while not reducing your personal >> wealth. Arun> Software is very tangible. Just like the information in a Arun> book is. Going by your philosophy, I should be allowed to Arun> photo copy all the books in the world. Exactly, you got it now! >> Note the important points here: >> >> 1. My wife's gains are still hers. If she gained 1 hour/day >> by using the program exclusively, it does not get reduced to >> 0.0002 hour/day when 5000 people use the program. See the >> difference between software and money? Arun> If you had in fact devised something that important, a lot Arun> of people would've readily paid you money to save that Arun> precious one hour a day. Arun> By giving it away for free, you've lost that money. It did Arun> decrease your personal wealth - indirectly. Perhaps. Perhaps not. I still have options to make money out of that software, by customising it, by extending it and by supporting it for a fee. Or by enhancing my reputation in the world to such an extent that people are willing to pay me phenomenal amounts of money to hire me, commission me for projects or have me on their podium for talks :-) That also is wealth, and in the free software world (i.e. the emerging world) a person's reputation will be his/her most important asset. Arun> In practice however, if someone asks me the best way to get Arun> to M.G. Road, I don't mind telling them. So why don't you charge them money for it? >> So please refrain from equating sharing of software, documents >> and information with philanthropy. Philanthropy is when you >> give away something which lessens your personal wealth. Arun> That is your definition of philanthropy. In my book, if a Arun> movie start goes on stage and donates the money to charity, Arun> she has commited an act of philanthropy through the loss of Arun> potential income. >> Sharing (and the spirit of the GNU) is when you give away >> something which still remains with you and also helps other >> people. Arun> No doubt. But I can't be forced to share everything - Arun> especially if it is related to my profession. That is your prerogative. Of course, if you don't share, please refer to my first post to get your definition ;-) -- Raju From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 04:58:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id EAA30462 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 04:58:19 -0800 Received: from blr.vsnl.net.in (blr.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.6]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id EAA30458; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 04:58:14 -0800 Received: from indica (indica@PPP-190-195.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.190.195]) by blr.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA26278; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:21:39 +0530 (IST) From: Dakshinamurthy Karra Organization: Subex Systems Ltd. To: linux-india@lists.linux-india.org, linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Fwd: Bangalore linux conference- reg. has begun on www.linux-conference.com Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:27:33 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99120518283502.00459@indica> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Bangalore linux conference- reg. has begun on www.linux-conference.com Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:05:12 IST From: "vijay tase" hello, We are Wrox press limited, hosts of the biggest upcoming linux event that india has witnessed and i am requesting you to kindly pass this round your local LUG members. Bang!inux is an exciting new conference geared toward the Linux programmer. The first Bang!inux is scheduled for the 25th to the 27th February 2000 at the Taj West End hotel and the Indian Institute of Science In Bangalore. This is a bash for Linux users, developers, sys-ads and those who just want to know what Linux is all about and how Linux can change their perspective oncomputing. Our speakers, a combination of several important local personalities and some of the biggest players in the Linux community, including Richard Stallman, Alan Cox and Atul Chitnis will be delivering over 20 sessions covering a broad range of exciting technical areas. Whether you are a beginner or an advanced Linux programmer this conference will have something for you. all this from only Rs.800 Interested? Check out the web-site at http://www.linux-conference.com for more details on sessions registration and more.Hope to see you in Bangalore! on behalf of the The Conference Team viay tase business manager (india) wrox press imited, UK Tel. mumbai 6152055, 6140109 www.linux-conference.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 09:58:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id JAA05389 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:58:11 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id JAA05385 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:58:07 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id LAA10924; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:49:23 -0600 X-Time: Sun Dec 5 11:49:20 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <874sdz6nun.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204113234.B18687@sharmas.dhs.org> <8766ye5odc.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204153250.B19240@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 05 Dec 1999 11:49:20 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:32:50 -0800" Message-ID: <87k8mt46sf.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 59 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 04:31:59PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: >> No. I am implying that lots of commercial companies merely >> ripped off the BSD fee work (Sun, Digital, Data General), branded it, >> and no benefit accrued to the community from these advances. Arun> But it didn't hurt any of the developers in any way. They were just Arun> as free. Empire building was not their goal. And therin lies the differnce in philosophies. The BSD people are content with whatever they have, they give the code off, and want nothing in return. The GPL folks are more into share and share alike -- I scratch your back, you scratvh mine philosophy. The BSD folks often characterize their code give away as charity, the GPL folks tend to talk more about community building. I personally prefer the latter. I still retain vestiges of Ayn Rand's "The virtue of selfishness" and "Atlas Shrugged". Arun> I don't know any of the (Free)BSD developers personally - but I Arun> like their organization - what appears to be merit based core Arun> team structure, as opposed to dictatorships. The problem is determining ``merit''. And the inherent snobbery in the *BSD teams does not help. As far as social structures go, I prefer Debian -- we are an independent lot, and we elect our Project leaders for a term. No ``core'' members lording it over all comers. We realize that some times decisions need to be made swiftly, or there are posts that require responsibility (like release management) that need to come with commensurate authority, and we *choose* to submit to elected officers. Decisions are determined, to the greatest extent possible, by consensus (with the elected officers having the duty and the right to step in and unstick stalled debates). Technical issues are rarely open to voting -- popularity is not a substitute for correctness. However, matters of policy and opinion are often decided by voting amongst (possible subsets of) the member body. I much prefer this to the strict, elitist heirarchy that *BSD folks are stuck with. As to dictatorships, you should be aware that even the Linux kernel is now closer to an oligarchy than a dictatorship. ;-) manoj -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. Pablo Picasso Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 10:07:26 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA05501 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:07:26 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA05497 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:07:21 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id MAA11330; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:01:39 -0600 X-Time: Sun Dec 5 12:01:36 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> <87vh6f580v.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204112109.A18687@sharmas.dhs.org> <87u2ly4949.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204152138.A19240@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 05 Dec 1999 12:01:36 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:21:38 -0800" Message-ID: <87g0xh467z.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 85 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> My statements still hold good. Free OSes make up a miniscule Arun> percentage of the OSes in use. Even in the wettest dreams of Arun> Linus Torvalds and Bob Young, they're not gunning for more than Arun> 15% of the market. You wish. ``World Domination'' is not that far off. (Tell me again the percentage of web servers that happen to be DFSG free). Arun> That's analogous to the amount of money I earn and the amount I donate. Arun> If I have Rs 5 in my pocket, I'll keep it there so that it is Arun> accessible only to me, as opposed to making it freely available Arun> to someone who is needier than me, to whom the value of Rs 5 is Arun> more than it is to me. Effectively an example of Raj's Arun> "increasing the wealth" argument. >> Arun> However, when the difference in needs crosses a threshold, Arun> philanthropy kicks in and sidelines selfishness. Lots of people Arun> contributed to the Orissa disaster fund for example. >> >> I think there is a subtle contradiction here. >> Arun> Which is ? Either the money stays in your pocket, or it does not. In the first paragraph you aver it stays with you, and then you waffle and offer riders in the second. >> I think the free software movement has proved this thesis incorrect. >> Arun> What "movement" ? I repeat a quote from an earlier posting on this list Don' split hairs. It is a movement, and is represented as such by a large fraction of the practitioners and the manstream press. Arun> Here is an interesting thought from a FreeBSD Vs Linux thread Arun> on the net: All that says is that rather than joining the fee software movement, the *BSD's distance them selves and offer themselves as a viable alternative to the commercial OS's. Pardon me, but yet again the *BSD's have squandered their opportunity, and are seeking a ``grapes are sour'' akternative. For some very bright people, they seem to always put their foot in their mouths ... Arun> Perhaps you got indoctrinated with all the GNU politics from Arun> RMS. That, sir, is an insult. I do not ever claim that your views are because of intellectual bankruptcy, or an inability to think for yourself, and I would thank you not to resort to ad hominems in this forum. Arun> I use free software because it is convenient and does what I Arun> want. It may not be the best thing around - but it's cheap, I Arun> can learn from it and I can modify it to suit my needs. Fine. I know that there are a large number of people who are merely using the work I put in, and not contributing anything back to the community. I also know that my work is being used by people who couldn't care two hoots about the my ideals and principles. That, indeed, is the strongest argument that can be presented for the GPL. I want to write for people in my community, not for companies and individuals who want to leech off my work. The GPL discourages such (hmm, low life is not an appropriate term), umm. opportunistic individual from ripping off work that was designed to benefit and strngthen a community. As I said, the GPL is about building a community. manoj -- "Not Hercules could have knock'd out his brains, for he had none." Shakespeare Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 12:57:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA06757 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:57:29 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA06753 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:57:26 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21935 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:57:25 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:57:25 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Message-ID: <19991205125725.A21891@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> <87vh6f580v.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204112109.A18687@sharmas.dhs.org> <87u2ly4949.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204152138.A19240@sharmas.dhs.org> <87g0xh467z.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <87g0xh467z.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from Manoj Srivastava on Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 12:01:36PM -0600 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 12:01:36PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: > > Arun> My statements still hold good. Free OSes make up a miniscule > Arun> percentage of the OSes in use. Even in the wettest dreams of > Arun> Linus Torvalds and Bob Young, they're not gunning for more than > Arun> 15% of the market. > > You wish. ``World Domination'' is not that far off. (Tell me > again the percentage of web servers that happen to be DFSG free). Have you thought about what percentage of them do it because of convenience and what percentage because use it because they want to `build a community' ? > Arun> Which is ? > > Either the money stays in your pocket, or it does not. In the > first paragraph you aver it stays with you, and then you waffle and > offer riders in the second. > It conditionally stays in my pocket. If the difference in needs crosses a threshold, I'll give it away - as an act of philanthropy. There is no contradiction. > >> I think the free software movement has proved this thesis incorrect. > >> > > Arun> What "movement" ? I repeat a quote from an earlier posting on this list > > Don' split hairs. It is a movement, and is represented as such > by a large fraction of the practitioners and the manstream press. Let me put it this way - I don't believe in the movement and I believe that a large number of people who use it don't either. > > Arun> Here is an interesting thought from a FreeBSD Vs Linux thread > Arun> on the net: > > All that says is that rather than joining the fee software > movement, the *BSD's distance them selves and offer themselves as a > viable alternative to the commercial OS's. > *BSDs have their own brand of free software - one that is less selfish than GNU software. > Pardon me, but yet again the *BSD's have squandered their > opportunity, and are seeking a ``grapes are sour'' akternative. For > some very bright people, they seem to always put their foot in their > mouths ... Squander ? Opportunity ? I'm sorry, I see no such thing. > > Arun> Perhaps you got indoctrinated with all the GNU politics from > Arun> RMS. > > That, sir, is an insult. I do not ever claim that your views > are because of intellectual bankruptcy, or an inability to think for > yourself, and I would thank you not to resort to ad hominems in this > forum. You asked me for my opinion on why you spend 25 hours a week on Debian. I gave you my opinion. I don't see indoctrination as an insult. I'm indoctrinated by M.K.Gandhi on some matters. In particular, indoctrination is not equivalent to thoughtless acceptance of a concept. That's what I learn from http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary If however you insist that my language was inappropriate, I can probably change that to "Perhaps you got influenced with all the GNU politics from RMS" while conveying the same meaning. > Fine. I know that there are a large number of people who are > merely using the work I put in, and not contributing anything > back to the community. I also know that my work is being used > by people who couldn't care two hoots about the my ideals and > principles. > > That, indeed, is the strongest argument that can be presented > for the GPL. This is exactly the core of the argument. GPL users prevent certain uses of their software so that people ideologically opposed to GPL can't benefit from it. > As I said, the GPL is about building a community. *BSD is about no strings attached donation. You can take my *BSD code, add a few lines to it and GPL it. No problems. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 13:38:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA06904 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:38:15 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA06900 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:38:09 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id PAA19404; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:30:52 -0600 X-Time: Sun Dec 5 15:30:51 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal References: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com> <19991205091138.A750@india.com> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 05 Dec 1999 15:30:51 -0600 In-Reply-To: Mrinal Kalakrishnan's message of "Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:11:38 +0530" Message-ID: <87bt853wj8.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Sudhakar Chandrasekharan typed: >> + Most lists will be closed to posting by subscribers only. This will >> prevent spamming. Umm. This is a slight problem -- my has, through mergers and acquisitions, changed its domain name a couple of times over the years. Add to that teh fact that my laptop sometimes is in my personal domain, and sometimes at a client site, there are a number of envelope addresses that I post under. Would there be a database of email addresses that are acceptable? can one add to/delete these addresses? Ideally, Majordomo would use an ldap database to contain subscription information, password controlled and manipulated by members of the list, but we live in a far from ideal world ;-) manoj -- Colorless green ideas sleep furiously. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 20:36:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA08689 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:36:09 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA08685 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:36:06 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA22858; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:35:56 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:35:56 -0800 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <199912060435.UAA22858@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Fwd: Linux headed for disaster? Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma) Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk I don't see this as a discussion for linux-india-general. But this message that just got posted to comp.os.linux.development.system is bound to generate a flurry of postings. Touches many topics - GPL, powers held by Linus et al, FreeBSD etc. Watch the newsgroup for some interesting debate. -Arun > From: KendallB@scitechsoft.com (Kendall Bennett) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system Subject: Linux headed for disaster? Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:55:10 -0600 Hi All, There have been discussions in recent months about why Linux does not support binary portable drivers, such that binary drivers from one Linux kernel version will work with future Linux kernel versions without needing to be re-compiled. Every single problem that has been mentioned as reasons not to implment Binary Portable modules for the Linux kernel is solvable. In fact there are *lots* of incredibly sound reasons for why the Linux kernel should be re-worked to support binary loadable modules that are portable between kernel versions, *even* for Open Source drivers, some of which are: 1. A later version of a kernel may well have introduced new bugs into a previously stable driver. Solving this problem currently requires the user to revert back to an older kernel revision. Doing so may not be desireable because the new kernel version may have updates and fixes that are desired. With binary portable modules, the module a previous kernel that did work could be used in place without problems (ie: it is expected to work if unless there is an interface change). 2. Binary portability requires more solid and clearly defined interfaces between the kernel internals and the modules themselves. By requiring that there be a clear separation or 'firewall' between drivers and the kernel internals, you can more easily avoid the classic problems of coupling where changes in some other part of the code affect other code that should not be affected. Specifically it makes it impossible for a driver to implement a 'quick hack' solution by accessing the internals of some other driver or the kenerl directly. However the *only* way to enforce this is to design device type specific binary API's, and *require* that the only way a device driver can talk to the kernel is via these API's. 3. Binary portability means much less regression testing is required for new kernel versions. If the driver itself does not get re-compiled, it does not need to be thoroughly re-tested. If the case of the Linux monolithic kernel approach, every driver is compiled into each new kernel version. How do you *really* know that a driver is functioning properly when a final release of 2.2.100 is made, unless *every* single device that is supported is properly tested with that particular version? A clear case in point in my book in the hardware compatibility as reported by Red Hat on their web site. Go to the Red Hat web site and check out the hardware compatibility list for network adapters. Red Hat has the concept of 'Tier 1', 'Tier 2' and 'Tier 3' supported hardware. Their definitions for this are: ---- Cut Here --- "Tier 1 Supported Hardware Tier 1 Supported Hardware is hardware that the Linux kernel can detect and use. It is known to be reliable in-house and in the field. Users who have purchased the Official Red Hat Linux 6.1/Intel boxed set can expect a reasonable level of support when installing the software on these hardware items." "Tier 2 Supported Hardware Tier 2 Supported Hardware is hardware that should be detected and usable with the Linux kernel. However, some users have reported problems with some versions of this hardware, or with the hardwares interaction with other hardware. Official Red Hat Linux 6.1/Intel boxed set owners can expect installation support for this hardware, but it will be limited to: . Providing information about which driver to use, install-time driver options, and how to enter them into either the installation program or /etc/conf.modules. . Determining whether Linux is recognizing the hardware." "Tier 3 (Compatible, but Unsupported Hardware) Hardware listed as Tier 3 is mostly compatible, should be detected and work with the Linux kernel on certain setups. The drivers for this hardware may be experimental, or the hardware may be problematic to work with. Owners of the Official Red Hat Linux 6.1/Intel boxed set can expect information on which included drivers to use with this hardware and determining if Linux recognizes the hardware. Drivers for this category are not always available from Red Hat, and no support for third party drivers will occur." ---- Cut Here --- Now in their list of supported adapters, they have only '5' families of network adapters that are listed as Tier one, and some of those families do not include popular cards (such as the 3Com 3c905B EtherExpress XL PCI boards). In particular note the lack of *any* NE2000 compatible adapters in this list. Now look at the Tier 2 list. This list is rather larger, but surely more of the adpaters in this list *should* be working better, since they have been around for some time and hence the drivers *should* have stabilised by now? I am sure Red Hat would not list hardware as Tier 2 unless "some users have reported problems with some versions of this hardware, or with the hardwares interaction with other hardware". More important is the fact that NE2000 adapters are listed as Tier 2 supported. In actual fact they don't work very well at all. We tried using a variant of Red Hat linux 6.1 on a system with two NE2000 ISA network adapters for a firewall. Guess what? It didn't work. We replaced it with two PCI 3Com 3c905B adapters and it is now working, but it doesn't make me feel confident when these adapaters are also not listed as supported by Red Hat. What is worse is I know that the NE2000's have worked perfectly in the past with the Linux 2.0.x kernel, as we originally had a variant of Red Hat 5.2 on the same machine running as a firewall and it worked fine. Which brings me back to the original point of my email. It would appear to me that unless Linux implemented a more clearly defined, binary portable driver mechanism, compatibility problems will continually creep in over time, plaguing the operating system with incompatibilities. Unless these problems are solved, and device driver conformance tests implemented, Linux is headed for disaster further down the track. Constrast this again with FreeBSD whose development methodology actively supports binary portable kernel modules. Perhaps now it makes more sense why FreeBSD is considered more stable than Linux and that so many web servers run FreeBSD and not Linux. FreeBSD does not support as much hardware, but for what it does support, it is more stable. The problem is that the *reasons* why the powers that be (Alan Cox and Linus Torvalds) do not want to implement binary portable drivers for the Linux kernel, are *not* based on sound reasoning. Specifically note the following correspondance between myself, Linus and Alan from about a month ago: ---- Cut Here --- Date sent: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:00:56 -0800 (PST) From: Linus Torvalds To: Kendall Bennett Copies to: Alan Cox Subject: Re: Binary loadable drivers in Linux? On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Kendall Bennett wrote: > > My opinion is that you should just continue to do it from user > > land. > > The problem is that the things we need to do *cant* be done from > user land. This specifically include the need to hook an interrupt > handler for DMA operations, which are very important for high > performance 3D graphics on Linux (and obviously for sound > drivers). Well, maybe you should be looking at Solaris/x86 then? I'm not all that interested in trying to help binary-only drivers, when people like 3dfx are opening up their specs and their libraries to the open source community. Why would I go to the extra work to help people who aren't even willing to help me? Quid pro quo. That's what the license is all about. I =allow= binary only drivers, but that is very different from =supporting= them. Linus ---- Cut Here --- The *reason* binary portable drivers are not implemented in Linux, is because Linus and Alan are wielding the power of Linux to *force* hardware vendors to implement Open Source device drivers. IMHO this is just as bad as Microsoft using their monopoly power to force vendors to ship Windows on their PC's. Surely true Open Source advocates would realise that companies will embrace Open Source for their products *if* it makes sense for them to do so? Eric S. Raymond has mentioned numerous times in his musing on Open Source software that Open Source is not suitable for every company and every software project. So why should vendors be *forced* to release information about their hardware just because Linus and Alan feel this is necessary in order to force Open Source on the rest of the world? The specific example Linus used in his response above was 3dfx. 3dfx is opening up their information because it makes sense for them to do so, not because they are being forced to do so. The information is being used to implement XFree86 drivers, which are *not* GPL'ed, so obviously it isn't a GPL requirement that is making them open up their specifications. XFree86 is under the X/MIT license which specifically allows for use in commercial projects (same license used by FreeBSD). More importantly XFree86 4.0 is designed around the concept of user land binary portable modules, specifically to solve the above mentioned compatibility problems. On top of this, there are commercial X-server vendors for Linux that 3dfx could have had implement their drivers, and continued to keep them closed source. They didn't do that because they realised it is cheaper and makes more sense to have those drivers be Open Source rather than closed source. Lots of stuff available for Linux outside of the Linux kernel is not Open Source. A lot of stuff is. The stuff that is, is Open Source because it makes sense for it to be Open Source, not because the developers were forced to make it Open Source. Open Source software will be successful because of the power that opening the source code provides. The power that 'With enough eyes, all bugs are shallow' as Linus once said. Has Linus forgotten the reasons why Linux is where it is today? Instead he appears content to wield the power of dictator over the Linux kernel sources to force vendors to do things his way. Regards, -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | SciTech Software - Building Truly Plug'n'Play Software! | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Kendall Bennett | To reply via email, remove nospam from | | Director of Engineering | the reply to email address. Do NOT send | | SciTech Software, Inc. | unsolicited commercial email! | | 505 Wall Street | ftp : ftp.scitechsoft.com | | Chico, CA 95928, USA | www : http://www.scitechsoft.com | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 20:55:12 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA08908 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:55:12 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA08902 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:54:57 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05101; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:24:00 +0530 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:24:00 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: DoE and Linux Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk This message has nothing to do with Linux as such, but it may be of interest to people in India and abroad that apparently, the Department of Electronics is no more - it is now called the Ministry of Information Technology (imaginatively abbreviated to MIT). What interests me is that there doesn't seem to be a single reference to Linux anywhere on that site. If anyone knows anyone at the DoE/MIT, could we start a campaign to get at least *some* info on Linux onto their site? Linux is very important to India, but unless the DoE/MIT starts waking up to that fact, official recognition for Linux seems a bit far off. Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 21:31:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA09148 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:31:11 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id VAA09144 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:31:04 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05143; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:59:16 +0530 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:59:16 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: minister@mit.gov.in cc: doeacc@doe.ernet.in Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk To The Ministry of Information Technology New Delhi, India. Gentlemen: I was very pleased to see the DoE's transformation into the Ministry of Information Technology - it shows the progress we are making in this field. However, I was a bit disheartened to see the complete absence of any reference to Linux on your website. Considering the important role that the DoE/MIT plays in India's advances in IT, and the fact that Linux is being adopted by Governments the world over, this seems like a major gap in the DoE/MIT's strategy to bring computing to the masses. And with Linux now achieving mainstream status in the computing industry the world over, this gap seems even more obvious. The Government of Karnataka has already taken the first few steps by making the study of Linux compulsory at technical education levels, and is beginning to adopt Linux at various levels of Government functioning. The University of Goa is running full-fledged Linux courses for both students and industry, and *any* industry expo these days has provisions for Linux-oriented topics. Your own ERnet has been the single biggest user of Linux since the early 90's. We, of Linux India (http://www.linux-india.org), have been actively spreading the word of Linux among the masses. But even the almost 1000 members of LI cannot achieve what a few people in the DoE/MIT can achieve - awareness of Linux in the right quarters. May I therefore suggest some levels of cooperation between the DoE/MIT and Linux India to enable India to benefit more comprehensively from Linux? With warm regards, Atul Chitnis Coordinator, Linux India, Bangalore http://www.linux-india.org From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 21:54:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA09196 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:54:37 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id VAA09187 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:54:27 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05173 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:24:08 +0530 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:24:08 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Anti-Linux talk at IT World '99/Comdex India???? Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk I was going through the official agenda for IT World '99/Comdex India that was published in the Economic Times (Bangalore edition, 6-Dec-99, Page 3). To my horror, I saw the following item scheduled: Dec 10, 16:00-16:45 Developers Track: "Why You should not use Linux" Vijay Mukhi, President VMCI, Mumbai Did I read this right? How blatendly bigoted can one get? And that too after a whole day full of pro-Windows2K seminars on the same day, and just after Jon "Maddog" Hall's presentation???? Please note that the official website for this event (http://www.itworld-comdex.com) has a totally different programme from the one published today in the quarter-page advertisement. Could the good warriors at ILUG-Delhi please go into Defcon 4? Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 22:40:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA09440 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:40:46 -0800 Received: from rri.res.in (root@equus.rri.res.in [202.54.37.67]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA09436 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:40:40 -0800 Received: from ias.ernet.in (prakash@ias.ernet.in [202.41.122.11]) by rri.res.in (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA29230 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:09:06 +0530 (IST) Received: (from prakash@localhost) by ias.ernet.in (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA18175; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:13:47 +0500 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:13:46 +0500 (GMT+0500) From: "N.A. Prakash" To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: DoE and Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Atul Chitnis wrote: > What interests me is that there doesn't seem to be a single reference to > Linux anywhere on that site. If anyone knows anyone at the DoE/MIT, could > we start a campaign to get at least *some* info on Linux onto their site? But Gopi of course. -- prakash From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 23:01:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA09681 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:01:24 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA09677 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:01:20 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id AAA06348; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:01:22 -0600 X-Time: Mon Dec 6 00:01:21 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: <38489C05.52FEC73D@vsnl.com> <19991203221411.B17038@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912040713.MAA19873@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991204000404.A17706@sharmas.dhs.org> <87vh6f580v.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204112109.A18687@sharmas.dhs.org> <87u2ly4949.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991204152138.A19240@sharmas.dhs.org> <87g0xh467z.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991205125725.A21891@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 06 Dec 1999 00:01:22 -0600 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:57:25 -0800" Message-ID: <871z904ngt.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 98 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 12:01:36PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: >> >>"Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: >> Arun> Have you thought about what percentage of them do it because of Arun> convenience and what percentage because use it because they want Arun> to `build a community' ? Who cares? The world is full of [ep[;e just turning a buck or taking advantages of other people and social structures (just tune in to any debate in the states about welfare) Sure, so there are people leeching on the community. But even they help the community, since sheer numbers open doors too. >> Don' split hairs. It is a movement, and is represented as such >> by a large fraction of the practitioners and the manstream press. Arun> Let me put it this way - I don't believe in the movement and I believe Arun> that a large number of people who use it don't either. As I said, there are a number of people riding the coat tails of the people who have a vision. Always have been, and always shall be. As far as I am concerned, they are irrelevant. I certainly am not going to make things easy for them. Arun> *BSDs have their own brand of free software - one that is less selfish Arun> than GNU software. Sure enough. Less selfish -- and less viable. There is more to writing for free unices than charity. If you are missing out on the cause, it is your loss. My commiserations are with you. You have, IMHO, missed out on the most gratifying aspect of fee software. >> Pardon me, but yet again the *BSD's have squandered their >> opportunity, and are seeking a ``grapes are sour'' akternative. For >> some very bright people, they seem to always put their foot in their >> mouths ... Arun> Squander ? Opportunity ? I'm sorry, I see no such thing. Precisely why you all are aquandering it. >> Fine. I know that there are a large number of people who are >> merely using the work I put in, and not contributing anything >> back to the community. I also know that my work is being used >> by people who couldn't care two hoots about the my ideals and >> principles. >> >> That, indeed, is the strongest argument that can be presented >> for the GPL. Arun> This is exactly the core of the argument. GPL users prevent certain Arun> uses of their software so that people ideologically opposed to GPL Arun> can't benefit from it. Yes. And that is precisely the point. We have an ideological reason for liking free software that goes beyong our own egos. It is the spririt of community. snip> >> As I said, the GPL is about building a community. Arun> *BSD is about no strings attached donation. You can take my *BSD code, Arun> add a few lines to it and GPL it. No problems. Sounds liek a free lunch. Frankly, I would hesitate to build my busnies on some one elses charity. With the GPL, I know it goes beyond that -- These people are interested in a community, and, as a member of a community, apart from just having the right to enjoy the fruits of other peoples labour, I have a duty to contribute back in. This co-operative community is what makes it easy for me to risk my livelyhood starting a business based on free software. It is not based on charity -- I don't need that -- it is based on a common, mutual benifit situation, and a community I have come to respect. I think we are beginning to rehash points now. manoj -- "And it's so portable --- at least, it worked on every VAX that I tried it on." Tim McDaniel (mcdaniel@adi.com) 6 Sep 90, Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 23:31:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA09926 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:31:48 -0800 Received: from uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in [202.141.1.17]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA09917 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:31:19 -0800 Received: from ece.iisc.ernet.in (ece.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.64.2]) by uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA00272; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:03:42 +0530 Received: by ece.iisc.ernet.in (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13488; Mon, 6 Dec 99 12:58:58+0530 From: gopi@ece.iisc.ernet.in (Gopi K Garge) Message-Id: <9912060728.AA13488@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: DoE and Linux To: achitnis@exocore.com (Atul Chitnis) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 99 12:58:58 GMT+5:30 Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org In-Reply-To: ; from "Atul Chitnis" at Dec 6, 99 10:24 am Phone: 91 80 334 0855 Request-Delivery-Notification: TRUE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Atul, AFAIK, it is more of an "afraid to admit" kind of situation at the MIT. There's ERNET using Linux, heard about NIC users using Linux, the Tech Dev for Indian Languages (TDIL) is planning to encourage Linux in a big way (and has their mail server running Linux) and more. ILUG-DEL would agree if I said that DoE .. Ooops MIT showed a pro-linux tendency. What say ? --Gopi Atul Chitnis sez: > This message has nothing to do with Linux as such, but it may be of > interest to people in India and abroad that apparently, the Department of > Electronics is no more - it is now called the Ministry of Information > Technology (imaginatively abbreviated to MIT). > What interests me is that there doesn't seem to be a single reference to > Linux anywhere on that site. If anyone knows anyone at the DoE/MIT, could > we start a campaign to get at least *some* info on Linux onto their site? > Linux is very important to India, but unless the DoE/MIT starts waking up > to that fact, official recognition for Linux seems a bit far off. > Atul > -------------------------------------------------------- > Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) > Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com > Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 > -------------------------------------------------------- -- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 23:36:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA09964 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:36:43 -0800 Received: from sgi.com (sgi.SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA09960 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:36:41 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com ([192.26.51.193]) by sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id XAA02130; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:36:40 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id XAA44630; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA90925; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:46:58 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA28275; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:04:00 +0530 (IST) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:04:00 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912060734.NAA28275@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Atul Chitnis Cc: Linux India General List Subject: Anti-Linux talk at IT World '99/Comdex India???? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Unfortunately India is full of people who don't know their a** from their head but manage to get Guru status anyway. The person mentioned under is a prime example. I could name others, but that's not the objective of this post :-) I don't think Linux-Delhi needs to do anythiing special to knock Mr M off his soapbox. I'll bet any amount that the participants will take his pants off in any case without anyone's help. Of course, if you have some suggestions on what is to be done I'l present them to Linux-Delhi. -- Raju >>>>> "Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: Atul> I was going through the official agenda for IT World Atul> '99/Comdex India that was published in the Economic Times Atul> (Bangalore edition, 6-Dec-99, Page 3). Atul> To my horror, I saw the following item scheduled: Atul> Dec 10, 16:00-16:45 Developers Track: "Why You should not Atul> use Linux" Vijay Mukhi, President VMCI, Mumbai Atul> Did I read this right? How blatendly bigoted can one get? Atul> And that too after a whole day full of pro-Windows2K Atul> seminars on the same day, and just after Jon "Maddog" Hall's Atul> presentation???? Atul> Please note that the official website for this event Atul> (http://www.itworld-comdex.com) has a totally different Atul> programme from the one published today in the quarter-page Atul> advertisement. Atul> Could the good warriors at ILUG-Delhi please go into Defcon Atul> 4? Atul> Atul Atul> -------------------------------------------------------- Atul> Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Atul> Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | Atul> +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 Atul> -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 5 23:56:49 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA10051 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:56:49 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA10047 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:56:42 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01066; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:26:11 +0530 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:26:10 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: Anti-Linux talk at IT World '99/Comdex India???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk > Dec 10, 16:00-16:45 > Developers Track: "Why You should not use Linux" > Vijay Mukhi, President VMCI, Mumbai For everyone's ref, I have scanned the relevant part of the ad and put it up at http://www.exocore.com/linux/notlinux.jpg. Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 6 00:09:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA10244 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:09:07 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA10240 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:09:00 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01085 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:38:51 +0530 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:38:51 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: Anti-Linux talk at IT World '99/Comdex India???? In-Reply-To: <199912060734.NAA28275@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Raj Mathur wrote: > I don't think Linux-Delhi needs to do anythiing special to knock Mr M > off his soapbox. I'll bet any amount that the participants will take > his pants off in any case without anyone's help. Of course, if you > have some suggestions on what is to be done I'l present them to > Linux-Delhi. Question: How many expos/seminars/etc. have you ever seen that have allowed a straight-forward anti-product talk as a subject? Someone from ILUG-Delhi could write in protest to the organisers, and also make the media aware of this. Why ILUG-Delhi? Because of the shortage of time for one, and the proximity (and possible connections) to the organisers. The issue is not whether the person in question is an ass or not - he was probably *chosen* to give this kind of talk because no one else would dare to talk on this subject. As for the people doing the "choosing" - I leave that open to speculation. Please note that there is also a panel discussion with "2 Eminent Speakers from the IT Industry" scheduled just after that talk. This seems to imply that they do not yet have anyone - so maybe a "Guru" from Delhi (again, proximity) could contact the organisers and make himself available *before* the slot is automatically allocated to someone not quite in favour of Linux? The point is - something needs to be done. If I knew what it was, I'd have suggested it in my initial post. Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 6 00:30:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA10405 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:30:58 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA10401 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:30:40 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01113 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:00:26 +0530 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:00:26 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: Anti-Linux talk at IT World '99/Comdex India???? In-Reply-To: <199912060734.NAA28275@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Raj Mathur wrote: > Unfortunately India is full of people who don't know their a** from > their head but manage to get Guru status anyway. The person > mentioned under is a prime example. I could name others, but that's > not the objective of this post :-) Guru status is something given to a person by others - the idiots are the ones that hand out this status to someone who does not deserve it. This particular gentleman is hardly a "Guru", because apart from having his books ghostwritten by others, he has done precious little for the industry. I wish people would be "graded" by their achievements rather than by labels bestowed by others. The second you use the achievement criteria, things change, because it becomes obvious that someone who basically just parrots concepts without applying them to the real world is hardly qualified for the "Guru" label. Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 6 00:32:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA10426 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:32:27 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA10422 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:32:25 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA23382 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:32:24 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:32:24 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: Anti-Linux talk at IT World '99/Comdex India???? Message-ID: <19991206003224.A23364@sharmas.dhs.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Atul Chitnis on Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 01:26:10PM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 01:26:10PM +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote: > > Dec 10, 16:00-16:45 > > Developers Track: "Why You should not use Linux" > > Vijay Mukhi, President VMCI, Mumbai Actually, the preceding talk from the SCO guy doesn't seem to be Linux friendly either. I've been to some Linux events in the valley (esp - around the time Linux was hitting the press big time) and there have been lively panel discussions - with reps from Microsoft etc. But of late too much money and reputations are at stake. I don't see that (dispassionate technical discussions) happening. I agree. Linux and open source need to be better represented - especially under the Linux track, where pro Linux talks seem to be outnumbered. -Arun (Who had too much sleep during the day and is having a tough time sleeping) From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 6 00:56:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA10579 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:56:06 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA10575 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:55:49 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01196 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:25:43 +0530 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:25:43 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: Anti-Linux talk at IT World '99/Comdex India???? In-Reply-To: <19991206003224.A23364@sharmas.dhs.org> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Arun Sharma wrote: > Actually, the preceding talk from the SCO guy doesn't seem to be Linux > friendly either. Yes, a notable member of the community in the US just told me the same thing - I must be getting old to have missed that one. It appears that all talks scheduled after Maddog's are basically to counter any goodwill he creates. This includes the reference to "migrating *from* Linux to the Enterprise". And I am sure that the panel discussion later will be ballot-box-stuffed with the same "eminent" personalities to counter Maddog. It sure looks like he will need some help - either in the panel or in the audience. > I agree. Linux and open source need to be better represented - especially > under the Linux track, where pro Linux talks seem to be outnumbered. Yep again. To drive home that point, check out the whole schedule that I just uploaded to http://www.exocore.com/linux/itworldad.jpg Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 6 01:14:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id BAA10763 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 01:14:37 -0800 Received: from uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in [202.141.1.17]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id BAA10759 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 01:14:14 -0800 Received: from ece.iisc.ernet.in (ece.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.64.2]) by uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA05238; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:42:15 +0530 Received: by ece.iisc.ernet.in (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15048; Mon, 6 Dec 99 14:37:31+0530 From: gopi@ece.iisc.ernet.in (Gopi K Garge) Message-Id: <9912060907.AA15048@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: Anti-Linux talk at IT World '99/Comdex India???? To: raju@sgi.com Date: Mon, 6 Dec 99 14:37:30 GMT+5:30 Cc: achitnis@exocore.com, linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org In-Reply-To: <199912060734.NAA28275@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from "Raj Mathur" at Dec 6, 99 1:04 pm Phone: 91 80 334 0855 Request-Delivery-Notification: TRUE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I tend to think that some of these schedules *may* have been triggerred by the success of Linux India's show of power at IT.COM '99..... atleast one big bird that I know tweeted about this. Would this be a possibility ? --Gopi Raj Mathur sez: > Unfortunately India is full of people who don't know their a** from > their head but manage to get Guru status anyway. The person > mentioned under is a prime example. I could name others, but that's > not the objective of this post :-) > I don't think Linux-Delhi needs to do anythiing special to knock Mr M > off his soapbox. I'll bet any amount that the participants will take > his pants off in any case without anyone's help. Of course, if you > have some suggestions on what is to be done I'l present them to > Linux-Delhi. > -- Raju > >>>>> "Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: > Atul> I was going through the official agenda for IT World > Atul> '99/Comdex India that was published in the Economic Times > Atul> (Bangalore edition, 6-Dec-99, Page 3). > Atul> To my horror, I saw the following item scheduled: > Atul> Dec 10, 16:00-16:45 Developers Track: "Why You should not > Atul> use Linux" Vijay Mukhi, President VMCI, Mumbai > Atul> Did I read this right? How blatendly bigoted can one get? > Atul> And that too after a whole day full of pro-Windows2K > Atul> seminars on the same day, and just after Jon "Maddog" Hall's > Atul> presentation???? > Atul> Please note that the official website for this event > Atul> (http://www.itworld-comdex.com) has a totally different > Atul> programme from the one published today in the quarter-page > Atul> advertisement. > Atul> Could the good warriors at ILUG-Delhi please go into Defcon > Atul> 4? > Atul> Atul > Atul> -------------------------------------------------------- > Atul> Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore > Atul> Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | > Atul> +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 > Atul> -------------------------------------------------------- -- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 6 03:16:55 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id DAA11591 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 03:16:55 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id DAA11587 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 03:16:49 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01367 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:46:15 +0530 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:46:15 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: Anti-Linux talk at IT World '99/Comdex India???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Atul Chitnis wrote: > things change, because it becomes obvious that someone who basically just > parrots concepts without applying them to the real world is hardly > qualified for the "Guru" label. Corrigendum - I meant "parrots concepts without BEING ABLE TO APPLY them to the real world is hardly qualified for the "Guru" label." Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 6 11:01:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA15324 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:01:48 -0800 Received: from netscape.com (h-205-217-237-47.netscape.com [205.217.237.47]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA15316 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:01:44 -0800 Received: from judge.mcom.com (judge.mcom.com [205.217.237.53]) by netscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA17564 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from netscape.com ([207.1.145.44]) by judge.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.03) with ESMTP id FMC25Z00.LKA; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:01:11 -0800 Message-ID: <384C07F7.AE39540F@netscape.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 11:01:11 -0800 From: Sudhakar Chandrasekharan Organization: Only Available on a Need To Know Basis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Manoj Srivastava CC: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal References: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com> <19991205091138.A750@india.com> <87bt853wj8.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Manoj Srivastava proclaimed: > Would there be a database of email addresses that are > acceptable? can one add to/delete these addresses? Currently for LI I have a seperate DB of the address that are not part of the list but still have posting privileges. Addition / deletion from this DB is manual. I am looking into listar as a replacement for majordomo. listar is extensible via modules. I think writing a module to let people submit a list of addresses from which they post should be a decent weekend programming job. > Ideally, Majordomo would use an ldap database to contain > subscription information, password controlled and manipulated by > members of the list, but we live in a far from ideal world ;-) Considering how listar is extensible I think it should be possible (don't know with how much effort) to do this. Thaths -- "Hey, we just got away with murder. And it was so easy. Y'know, I never liked that wiener Milhouse." -- Homer J. Simpson Sudhakar C13n http://people.netscape.com/thaths/ Lead Indentured Slave From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 6 11:05:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA15348 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:05:30 -0800 Received: from netscape.com (h-205-217-237-47.netscape.com [205.217.237.47]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA15344 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:05:28 -0800 Received: from judge.mcom.com (judge.mcom.com [205.217.237.53]) by netscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18362 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:04:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from netscape.com ([207.1.145.44]) by judge.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.03) with ESMTP id FMC2C900.LKO for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:04:57 -0800 Message-ID: <384C08D9.5502FBD3@netscape.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 11:04:57 -0800 From: Sudhakar Chandrasekharan Organization: Only Available on a Need To Know Basis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Atul Chitnis proclaimed: > On 4 Dec 1999, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > > I suggest Linix-india-help. > Apart from the obvious spellcheck ;-) I'd call it linux-india-TECH-help or > something else descriptive -it helps a lot getting a fix on which list > would be the right one to post a technical query to. How about linux-india-user instead of -help or -tech-help? J/ a thought. Thaths -- "Hey, we just got away with murder. And it was so easy. Y'know, I never liked that wiener Milhouse." -- Homer J. Simpson Sudhakar C13n http://people.netscape.com/thaths/ Lead Indentured Slave From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 6 20:17:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA17920 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:17:19 -0800 Received: from c004.sfo.cp.net (c004-h007.c004.sfo.cp.net [209.228.14.63]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA17916 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:17:16 -0800 Received: (cpmta 7078 invoked from network); 6 Dec 1999 20:17:13 -0800 Received: from unknown (HELO mukund) (202.144.38.219) by smtp.satyam.net.in with SMTP; 6 Dec 1999 20:17:13 -0800 X-Sent: 7 Dec 1999 04:17:13 GMT Message-ID: <000201bf40d2$58a54840$f201a8c0@mukund> From: "betacomp" To: "Linux India General List" Subject: Re: Anti-Linux talk at IT World '99/Comdex India???? Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:25:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Does this anti linux talk gives us right to hack their site ;-)) (http://www.itworld-comdex.com) (Just a loud thinking) Best Regards, -mukund http://members.theglobe.com/betacomp/index.htm http://members.xoom.com/BETACOMP/index1.htm |Please note that the official website for this event |(http://www.itworld-comdex.com) has a totally different programme from the |one published today in the quarter-page advertisement. | From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 01:42:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id BAA20375 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 01:42:10 -0800 Received: from alabama.innomedia.soft.net (IDENT:root@ns.innomedia.soft.net [164.164.79.130]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id BAA20361; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 01:41:57 -0800 Received: from hanishkvc (IDENT:hanishkvc@[192.168.1.154]) by alabama.innomedia.soft.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29541; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:53:17 +0530 From: C Hanish Menon Reply-To: hanish@innomedia.soft.net To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Fwd: Linux headed for disaster? >> My thoughts << Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:06:56 +0530 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <199912060435.UAA22858@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> In-Reply-To: <199912060435.UAA22858@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> Cc: linux-india@lists.linux-india.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99120715133903.00734@hanishkvc> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi These are just some of my thoughts. > > From: KendallB@scitechsoft.com (Kendall Bennett) > > Every single problem that has been mentioned as reasons not to implment > Binary Portable modules for the Linux kernel is solvable. In fact there > are *lots* of incredibly sound reasons for why the Linux kernel should be > re-worked to support binary loadable modules that are portable between > kernel versions, *even* for Open Source drivers, some of which are: > > 1. A later version of a kernel may well have introduced new bugs into a > previously stable driver. Solving this problem currently requires the > user to revert back to an older kernel revision. Doing so may not be > desireable because the new kernel version may have updates and fixes that > are desired. With binary portable modules, the module a previous kernel > that did work could be used in place without problems (ie: it is expected > to work if unless there is an interface change). Well I have 2 statements about it. a) A NONBINARY SOURCE module can also solve this problem. If one finds that the new driver code in a new kernel is not working properly, He can ALWAYS try compiling the old driver source with the new kernel. However there is a problem here (i.e using Old driver with New Kernel core, irrespesctive of SOURCE or BINARY) i.e if there is some major change in the way things like Interrupts or Memory or PCI subsystem (etc. etc..) is handled by the kernel core and the driver is using these Then the old source may not work or for that matter may not even compile, but in such a situation I DON'T find the Binary ONLY Module working either. But if one has the SOURCE one can TRY FIXING the problem in the code and if he hits the BULLS EYE he can GIVE IT TO OTHERS. Where as with a binary only driver we are stuck for sure till the company gives us a updated driver. I had faced this problem in Bangalore IT.COM when setting up the Diskless m/cs and network cards. But as I had the source for the driver I could make a UGLY PATCH!!!, but ONE WHICH WORKED :-) in 5 minutes. Well can one expect such a solution from a Binary Only driver in such a short time. b) Well even with BINARY ONLY DRIVERS its not always the case that it will work with the newer kernel even if the INTERFACE hasn't changed ( I think Win2000 betas and also some WDM drivers could be a case in point here). This is what this guy means if I am not wrong when he says "i.e its EXPECTED to work if unless there is an interface change." ( I made expected capitalized :-) > > 2. Binary portability requires more solid and clearly defined interfaces > between the kernel internals and the modules themselves. By requiring > that there be a clear separation or 'firewall' between drivers and the > kernel internals, you can more easily avoid the classic problems of > coupling where changes in some other part of the code affect other code > that should not be affected. Specifically it makes it impossible for a > driver to implement a 'quick hack' solution by accessing the internals of > some other driver or the kenerl directly. However the *only* way to > enforce this is to design device type specific binary API's, and > *require* that the only way a device driver can talk to the kernel is via > these API's. If I may say so most of the kernel subsystems are well structured and have well defined interfaces if one wishes to use them. This is more to do with writing CLEAN sources, which is also a requirement in Binary only drivers also. > > 3. Binary portability means much less regression testing is required for > new kernel versions. If the driver itself does not get re-compiled, it > does not need to be thoroughly re-tested. If the case of the Linux > monolithic kernel approach, every driver is compiled into each new kernel > version. How do you *really* know that a driver is functioning properly > when a final release of 2.2.100 is made, unless *every* single device > that is supported is properly tested with that particular version? > I don't see how a Binary only driver solves this problem. This is more to do with CLEAN coding than anything else. With Source drivers we are at an advantage as I have stated in argument for Point 1. I hope he is not stating that re-compiling introduces errors, well this can only occur if the compiler is screwed up. I MEAN I can't take the argument that "if the driver itself doesn't get re-compiled, it does not need to be thoroughly re-tested. ". I mean I can NATURALY if I may say so EXTEND this argument to say that if the DRIVER SOURCE hasn't changed then It doesn't need to be thoroughly re-tested. Then WHAT IS his problem regarding testing. > > The specific example Linus used in his response above was 3dfx. 3dfx is > opening up their information because it makes sense for them to do so, > not because they are being forced to do so. The information is being used > to implement XFree86 drivers, which are *not* GPL'ed, so obviously it > isn't a GPL requirement that is making them open up their specifications. > XFree86 is under the X/MIT license which specifically allows for use in > commercial projects (same license used by FreeBSD). More importantly > XFree86 4.0 is designed around the concept of user land binary portable > modules, specifically to solve the above mentioned compatibility > problems. On top of this, there are commercial X-server vendors for Linux > that 3dfx could have had implement their drivers, and continued to keep > them closed source. They didn't do that because they realised it is > cheaper and makes more sense to have those drivers be Open Source rather > than closed source. > Well thats my (for that matter most peoples) point also. i.e It MAKES MORE SENSE for hardware vendors to have open sourced drivers in the LONG RUN if they are having a product thats to be used by the Linux community or for that matter which ever community its i.e Windows or Solaris or whatever. It finaly helps the END USERS who aren't worried about all these AS WELL AS the NIGHT OIL ones. Thus I can sum up this persons mail as a mearly COMMERCIALY MOTIVATED stuff than anything else. --------- Keep :-) HanishKVC http://hanishkvc.tripod.com/ From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 04:44:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id EAA22433 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 04:44:33 -0800 Received: from bgl2.vsnl.net.in (bgl2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.46]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id EAA22428 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 04:44:29 -0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (IDENT:root@PPP-190-199.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.190.199]) by bgl2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19614 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:05:51 +0530 (IST) Received: (from mrinal@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01584 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:52:18 +0530 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:38:37 +0530 From: Mrinal Kalakrishnan To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Message-ID: <19991207173837.A1297@india.com> Mail-Followup-To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org References: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com> <19991205091138.A750@india.com> <87bt853wj8.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <87bt853wj8.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from srivasta@acm.org on Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 03:30:51PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Red Hat Linux release 6.1 (Cartman) X-Kernel: Kernel 2.2.12-20 on an i686 X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 5.5 (1999 Sep 19, compiled Nov 28 1999 12:10:49) X-URL: http://listen.to/mrinal Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Manoj Srivastava typed: > Would there be a database of email addresses that are > acceptable? can one add to/delete these addresses? In fact, Thaths had made such a database when he closed the main LI list to subscribers only. Of course, there won't be a way in which you can add yourself, since that would defeat the purpose.. Now, the question is, will that database be global, for all the lists, or will each list have a separate database? -- Mrinal Kalakrishnan (PGP:B1E86F5B) http://listen.to/mrinal - - - - = ( Redhat Linux 6.1 ) = - - - - = ( Kernel 2.2.12-20 ) = - - - - From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 04:44:36 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id EAA22444 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 04:44:36 -0800 Received: from bgl2.vsnl.net.in (bgl2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.46]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id EAA22429 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 04:44:30 -0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (IDENT:root@PPP-190-199.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.190.199]) by bgl2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19629 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:05:53 +0530 (IST) Received: (from mrinal@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01525 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:50:50 +0530 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:50:50 +0530 From: Mrinal Kalakrishnan To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Message-ID: <19991207175050.B1297@india.com> Mail-Followup-To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org References: <19991205091138.A750@india.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from achitnis@exocore.com on Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 10:31:47AM +0530 X-Operating-System: Red Hat Linux release 6.1 (Cartman) X-Kernel: Kernel 2.2.12-20 on an i686 X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 5.5 (1999 Sep 19, compiled Nov 28 1999 12:10:49) X-URL: http://listen.to/mrinal Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Atul Chitnis typed: > LID will probably die, but the other lists would all have digest options, > so not to fear. You will probably be thankful for that, especially because > it will give you an option *not* to receive a huge megabyte-sized LIG > digest monster.... ;-) LID will definitely have to die! For the other lists, since the traffic is supposed to be much less than the original main LI list, this means the frequency of digests will reduce. Currently, I receive around 2-3 digests a day (during weekdays). Assuming the list is split into 5, the frequency of digests from a particular list will reduce to less than 1 a day - unless the size of the digest is reduced from 40K to something less (to maintain the same frequency - it'll have to be reduced to 8K). This defeats the purpose of the digest, since 8K hardly contains 4 to 5 messages. What I suggest, is that subscribers who want the mailing list in digest form should be able to receive a single digest containing messages from all the lists they are subscribed to. I don't think Majordomo can do this (correct me if I'm wrong), but we could probably hack up a small app to do it.. -- Mrinal Kalakrishnan (PGP:B1E86F5B) http://listen.to/mrinal - - - - = ( Redhat Linux 6.1 ) = - - - - = ( Kernel 2.2.12-20 ) = - - - - From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 09:01:13 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id JAA25587 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:01:13 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id JAA25583 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:01:11 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA27128 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:01:11 -0800 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:01:11 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Re: Fwd: Linux headed for disaster? >> My thoughts << Message-ID: <19991207090111.B27055@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <199912060435.UAA22858@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> <99120715133903.00734@hanishkvc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <99120715133903.00734@hanishkvc>; from C Hanish Menon on Tue, Dec 07, 1999 at 02:06:56PM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Dec 07, 1999 at 02:06:56PM +0530, C Hanish Menon wrote: > > Thus I can sum up this persons mail as a mearly COMMERCIALY MOTIVATED stuff > than anything else. Your points about the advantages of having an open source driver are very valid. Much newsprint has been dedicated to it already. But there are situations under which people want to preserve their intellectual properties. And they should be free to do so. XFree86 4.0 is being smart here in defining a binary interface. So if a graphic chip vendor wants to release a binary only driver, I can use it with XFree86 4.0. Sure it may not work as well as a source only driver, but it's better than nothing. Using GPL to pry open unwanting people's IPs and then gloating over the righteousness of doing so is pretty amusing to me. As I said on more public forums, I don't think this is a technical decision at all. This is politics. This is why I'm coding for FreeBSD these days. Binary drivers don't work always, but as Windows, Solaris and UnixWare have demonstrated, a large majority of the drivers can be made to work. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/udi.html on what happens when people try to come up with new standards for interoperability. If the GNU project was as big as it is today when POSIX was standardized, I'm sure they would've said - oh! we don't want POSIX, because it helps Microsoft implement it on NT and use GNU/Linux software. I've had enough of this. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 10:01:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA26281 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:01:40 -0800 Received: from netscape.com (h-205-217-237-47.netscape.com [205.217.237.47]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA26277 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:01:39 -0800 Received: from judge.mcom.com (judge.mcom.com [205.217.237.53]) by netscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA12235 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:00:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from netscape.com ([207.1.145.44]) by judge.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.03) with ESMTP id FMDU2G00.18R for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:01:28 -0800 Message-ID: <384D4B78.1F636BE2@netscape.com> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 10:01:28 -0800 From: Sudhakar Chandrasekharan Organization: Only Available on a Need To Know Basis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal References: <19991205091138.A750@india.com> <19991207175050.B1297@india.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Mrinal Kalakrishnan proclaimed: > What I suggest, is that subscribers who want the mailing list in > digest form should be able to receive a single digest containing > messages from all the lists they are subscribed to. I don't think > Majordomo can do this (correct me if I'm wrong), but we could probably > hack up a small app to do it.. It takes trivial perl and majordomo configuration hackage to do this. But it is a terrible nightmare to maintain. Mainbly because some folks receiving this digest email are bound to reply to the wrong mailing list. Thaths -- "Hey, we just got away with murder. And it was so easy. Y'know, I never liked that wiener Milhouse." -- Homer J. Simpson Sudhakar C13n http://people.netscape.com/thaths/ Lead Indentured Slave From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 10:05:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA26377 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:05:58 -0800 Received: from sgi.com (sgi.SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA26373 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:05:49 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com ([192.26.51.193]) by sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id KAA07592; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:05:27 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id KAA88644; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id XAA10349; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:15:42 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA09031; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:31:46 +0530 (IST) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:31:46 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912071801.XAA09031@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Arun Sharma Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Re: Fwd: Linux headed for disaster? >> My thoughts << In-Reply-To: <19991207090111.B27055@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <199912060435.UAA22858@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> <99120715133903.00734@hanishkvc> <19991207090111.B27055@sharmas.dhs.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk 2 possibilities: 1. Linux fails or remains a niche OS, in which case the people who go on about preserving their intellectual properties will be happy and will continue to make their proprietary, anti-social stuff. 2. Linux succeeds, so the stand that people like Linus Torvalds, RMS, Manoj and I take (it's OK, I took 3 breaths between the first three names and the last :-) will be vindicated and the proprietary people can either continue to develop for MS and guard their increasingly useless intellectual property, change their points of view when they find that the world has changed, or as the last alternative go to Hades and bargain with the Devil over copyright over memories (sorry, souls are already proprietary) :-) Regards, -- Raju >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Tue, Dec 07, 1999 at 02:06:56PM +0530, C Hanish Menon Arun> wrote: >> Thus I can sum up this persons mail as a mearly COMMERCIALY >> MOTIVATED stuff than anything else. Arun> Your points about the advantages of having an open source Arun> driver are very valid. Much newsprint has been dedicated to Arun> it already. Arun> But there are situations under which people want to preserve Arun> their intellectual properties. And they should be free to do Arun> so. XFree86 4.0 is being smart here in defining a binary Arun> interface. So if a graphic chip vendor wants to release a Arun> binary only driver, I can use it with XFree86 4.0. Sure it Arun> may not work as well as a source only driver, but it's Arun> better than nothing. Arun> Using GPL to pry open unwanting people's IPs and then Arun> gloating over the righteousness of doing so is pretty Arun> amusing to me. Arun> As I said on more public forums, I don't think this is a Arun> technical decision at all. This is politics. This is why I'm Arun> coding for FreeBSD these days. Arun> Binary drivers don't work always, but as Windows, Solaris Arun> and UnixWare have demonstrated, a large majority of the Arun> drivers can be made to work. Arun> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/udi.html on what happens Arun> when people try to come up with new standards for Arun> interoperability. If the GNU project was as big as it is Arun> today when POSIX was standardized, I'm sure they would've Arun> said - oh! we don't want POSIX, because it helps Microsoft Arun> implement it on NT and use GNU/Linux software. Arun> I've had enough of this. Arun> -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 11:03:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA26930 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:03:00 -0800 Received: from -s (goa1.dot.net.in [202.54.17.30]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA26926 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:02:48 -0800 Received: from goanews ([202.54.17.96]) by -s (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id AAA25037 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:34:45 +0530 (GMT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991208001653.0084caa0@202.54.17.30> X-Sender: fred@202.54.17.30 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 00:16:53 +0500 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org From: Frederick Noronha Subject: EPW: Special issue on *Internet in South Asia* Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk The Economic and Political Weekly of Mumbai -- which "for over 50 years has been mandatory reading for social science teachers, students and researchers" -- has shifted focus in its latest issue to look at the theme of *Internet in South Asia*. It comments in this issue: "The Internet offers some hope to the people of the region who live in widely disparate living environments and particularly in remote communities. But in order to take full advantage of this new technology, there is a need to evolve regional and region-specific norms and practices. A recent conference on the subject has thrown up several relevant issues. (Arun Mehta and Shahid Akhtar write on *Promoting the Internet in South Asia*). A review of telecommunication networks in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal reveals that they are in unformly poor shape. There is an emerging scope for rationalising telecom policies with a view to convergence of communication technologies across the region. (Vickram Crishna, Noor-ud-Din Baqai, Bhoop Raj Pandey and Fazlur Rahman write on &Telecommunications Infrastructure: A Long Way to Go*). The regulatory climate in South ASia has only recently welcomed private Internet service providers. The challenge lies in creating a level playing field so that the digital divide between rural and urban, non-English and English-speaking South Asia can be minimised and eliminated. (Madanmohan Rao, Sanjib Rai Bhandari, S M Iqbal, Anjali Sinha and Wahaj us Siraj write on *Struggling With the Digital Divide: Internet Infrastructure, Policies and Regulations*). Meanwhile, a review of online content in South Asian countries with a special focus on the number of websites, local relevance, community involvement, directories, search engines, advertisement revenue and third party audits. And policy suggestions for content development. (Madanmohan Rao, Imran Rashid, Hasan Rizvi and Rajib Subba write on *Online Content in South Asia*). Another article *Linus: Open Source Software for South Asia* by FN also appears on pages 2373-75. Please check out EPW at http://www.epw.org.in You can also visit it at http://www.south-asian-initiative.org/epw POSTED VIA 0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0 Frederick Noronha, Freelance Journalist, 784 Saligao 403511 Goa India fred@goa1.dot.net.in or fred@vsnl.com Ph (0091).832.271490 / 27 86 83 0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0 From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 12:30:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA27646 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:30:48 -0800 Received: from md2.vsnl.net.in (md2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.6.20]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA27642 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:30:39 -0800 Received: from cldlmd2 (cbe-d51.pppmad.vsnl.net.in [202.54.33.210] (may be forged)) by md2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA09309 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 02:06:19 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <013701bf40f0$a5229920$da2136ca@cldlmd2> From: "Shanmugasundaram Doraisamy" To: Subject: Need help on setting up a network with remot boot - reg. Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 01:48:37 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00F6_01BF411E.5804D800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F6_01BF411E.5804D800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everybody! We are looking for people with good = knowledge in setting up a network with diskless clients which would = remote boot and also run X server on the same. Consultants in the = Tamilnadu area can respond to this mail. Thanking you in anticipation, Yours sincerely, Shanmugam. ------=_NextPart_000_00F6_01BF411E.5804D800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Everybody!
       =20             =    =20     We are looking for people with good knowledge in = setting up a=20 network with diskless clients which would remote boot and also run X = server on=20 the same.  Consultants in the Tamilnadu area can respond to = this=20 mail.  Thanking you in anticipation,
 
Yours sincerely,
Shanmugam.
------=_NextPart_000_00F6_01BF411E.5804D800-- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 12:47:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA27716 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:47:53 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA27712 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:47:41 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id OAA06570; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:38:05 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.4.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Tue Dec 7 14:38:03 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal References: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com> <19991205091138.A750@india.com> <87bt853wj8.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991207173837.A1297@india.com> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 07 Dec 1999 14:38:04 -0600 In-Reply-To: Mrinal Kalakrishnan's message of "Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:38:37 +0530" Message-ID: <877liq32s3.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>"Mrinal" == Mrinal Kalakrishnan writes: Mrinal> Of course, there won't be a way in which you can add Mrinal> yourself, since that would defeat the purpose.. I am confused. Why would that defeat the purpose? In fact, creating a passowrd controlled ldap database where people can add and remove auxilliary addresses would address some of the nightmare of maintenance that thats was talking about. And there are some cool ldap-perl amalgation going on out there ;-) Before you start pushing security breaches down my throught, please explain how is it any less secure than allowing people to sign up to the list unauthenticated. manoj -- : The following (relative to AutoSplit 1.03) attempts to please everyone : and perhaps pleases no one: I think that's way cool. Larry Wall in <199709292015.NAA09627@wall.org> Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 20:33:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA31080 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:33:05 -0800 Received: from bgl2.vsnl.net.in (bgl2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.46]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA31074 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:32:53 -0800 Received: from localhost.localdomain (IDENT:root@PPP-190-211.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.190.211]) by bgl2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26437 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:54:06 +0530 (IST) Received: (from mrinal@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01373 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:08:27 +0530 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:08:26 +0530 From: Mrinal Kalakrishnan To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal Message-ID: <19991208100826.A1063@india.com> Mail-Followup-To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org References: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com> <19991205091138.A750@india.com> <87bt853wj8.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991207173837.A1297@india.com> <877liq32s3.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <877liq32s3.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com>; from srivasta@acm.org on Tue, Dec 07, 1999 at 02:38:04PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Red Hat Linux release 6.1 (Cartman) X-Kernel: Kernel 2.2.12-20 on an i686 X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 5.5 (1999 Sep 19, compiled Nov 28 1999 12:10:49) X-URL: http://listen.to/mrinal Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Manoj Srivastava typed: > Before you start pushing security breaches down my throught, > please explain how is it any less secure than allowing people > to sign up to the list unauthenticated. That's true - it isn't any less secure than allowing anybody to sign up to the list. But it gives the so called ``spammers'' an advantage. Normally, they would have to subscribe to the list, and post their spam. (And receive a lot of mail in the process). But if this is implemented, it makes their work a lot easier, because their mailbox is not going to get flooded. Of course, I wouldn't mind the ``password controlled ldap database''! -- Mrinal Kalakrishnan (PGP:B1E86F5B) http://listen.to/mrinal - - - - = ( Redhat Linux 6.1 ) = - - - - = ( Kernel 2.2.12-20 ) = - - - - From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 20:39:02 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA31187 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:39:02 -0800 Received: from alabama.innomedia.soft.net (IDENT:root@ns.innomedia.soft.net [164.164.79.130]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA31183 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:38:51 -0800 Received: from hanishkvc (IDENT:hanishkvc@[192.168.1.154]) by alabama.innomedia.soft.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06529 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:50:29 +0530 From: C Hanish Menon Reply-To: hanish@innomedia.soft.net To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Fwd: Linux headed for disaster? >> Doesn't Patents protect Or Isn't Binary code ENOUGH !!! << Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:57:41 +0530 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <199912060435.UAA22858@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> <99120715133903.00734@hanishkvc> <19991207090111.B27055@sharmas.dhs.org> In-Reply-To: <19991207090111.B27055@sharmas.dhs.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99120810105000.01854@hanishkvc> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi This is a doubt I have, may be what I am thinking is wrong, Please do clarify. On Tue, 07 Dec 1999, Arun Sharma wrote: > But there are situations under which people want to preserve their > intellectual properties. And they should be free to do so. XFree86 4.0 > is being smart here in defining a binary interface. So if a graphic > chip vendor wants to release a binary only driver, I can use it with > XFree86 4.0. Sure it may not work as well as a source only driver, but > it's better than nothing. > When talking about not releasing Source based drivers we are talking about the possibility of one coming to know about the Hardware logic built into these cards or so if I am not wrong. Which the hardware vendor doesn't want others to use with out permission from him. But is this Binary only driver realy solving the above problem? My points for this are a) He can PATENT it if its REALY UNIQUE. and this should protect him from others taking undue advantage or copying his effort with out getting consent from him. b) The Software drivers If I am not wrong May/Maynot provide enough info always. (I know it depends). But at the levels of Drivers, If someone is REALLY INTERESTED in GETTING to KNOW the HARDWARE LOGIC, the BINARY CODE IS IN ITSELF MORE THAN SUFFICIENT MOST OF THE TIMES. Thus I DON'T see as to WHAT advantage do hardware vendors have in NOT RELEASING SOURCE based Drivers. PLEASE CLARIFY. --------- Keep :-) HanishKVC http://hanishkvc.tripod.com/ From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 22:50:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id WAA32544 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:50:16 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id WAA32540 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:50:14 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA28888 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:50:13 -0800 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:50:13 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Fwd: Linux headed for disaster? >> Doesn't Patents protect Or Isn't Binary code ENOUGH !!! << Message-ID: <19991207225013.A28801@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <199912060435.UAA22858@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> <99120715133903.00734@hanishkvc> <19991207090111.B27055@sharmas.dhs.org> <99120810105000.01854@hanishkvc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <99120810105000.01854@hanishkvc>; from C Hanish Menon on Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 09:57:41AM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 09:57:41AM +0530, C Hanish Menon wrote: > > a) He can PATENT it if its REALY UNIQUE. and this should protect him > from others taking undue advantage or copying his effort with out getting > consent from him. > Most corporates these days have a war chest of patents and encourage their employees to get more patents with financial incentives. I'm not a huge fan of this practice. A lot of companies - at least a large semiconductor vendor I've worked for - won't touch GPL with a ten foot pole because they're afraid of losing their patents as a result of willingly releasing code under GPL. i.e. someone can sue claiming that their patents are invalid because the code was released under GPL. Note that this is a situation unique to GPL. > b) The Software drivers If I am not wrong May/Maynot provide enough > info always. (I know it depends). But at the levels of Drivers, If > someone is REALLY INTERESTED in GETTING to KNOW the HARDWARE LOGIC, > the BINARY CODE IS IN ITSELF MORE THAN SUFFICIENT MOST OF THE TIMES. > Thus I DON'T see as to WHAT advantage do hardware vendors have in NOT > RELEASING SOURCE based Drivers. PLEASE CLARIFY. Good point. People who want to reverse engineer can do so even with binaries. So this isn't really an issue - though some people claim that reverse engineering from source is easier. But there are other reasons - (a) Clever combination of hardware and software to reduce costs. Winmodem is a much vilified and perhaps unnecessary trick. But is a valid concept. By releasing source, you're giving away the trick. Again, releasing under GPL = losing your patent. (b) General FUD associated with GPL. Small time companies which don't have the means to hire a lawyer for a legal opinion just don't want to go through the hassle. (c) Support costs - they don't want to maintain or support a driver which has been changed significantly. -Arun PS: Unnecessary capitalization is considered NOISY on the net. You normally do that to express a strong emotion. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 23:01:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA32649 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:01:16 -0800 Received: from uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in [202.141.1.17]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA32645 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:01:11 -0800 Received: from ece.iisc.ernet.in (ece.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.64.2]) by uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA22234; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:35:03 +0530 Received: by ece.iisc.ernet.in (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21275; Wed, 8 Dec 99 12:29:58+0530 From: gopi@ece.iisc.ernet.in (Gopi K Garge) Message-Id: <9912080659.AA21275@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: [LI] Fwd: Linux headed for disaster? >> Doesn't Patents protect Or Isn't Binary code ENOUGH !!! << To: hanish@innomedia.soft.net Date: Wed, 8 Dec 99 12:29:57 GMT+5:30 Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org In-Reply-To: <99120810105000.01854@hanishkvc>; from "C Hanish Menon" at Dec 8, 99 9:57 am Phone: 91 80 334 0855 Request-Delivery-Notification: TRUE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hanish, You might want to use prefix and suffix using a character like "*" to highlight a point or a term in your email; using upper case implies that you are shouting (as in a flame...), which I presume is not what you are ... or are you ? .. ;-) --Gopi C Hanish Menon sez: > Hi > This is a doubt I have, may be what I am thinking is wrong, Please do clarify. > On Tue, 07 Dec 1999, Arun Sharma wrote: > > But there are situations under which people want to preserve their > > intellectual properties. And they should be free to do so. XFree86 4.0 > > is being smart here in defining a binary interface. So if a graphic > > chip vendor wants to release a binary only driver, I can use it with > > XFree86 4.0. Sure it may not work as well as a source only driver, but > > it's better than nothing. > > > When talking about not releasing Source based drivers we are talking about the > possibility of one coming to know about the Hardware logic built into these > cards or so if I am not wrong. Which the hardware vendor doesn't want others to > use with out permission from him. But is this Binary only driver realy solving > the above problem? My points for this are > a) He can PATENT it if its REALY UNIQUE. and this should protect him > from others taking undue advantage or copying his effort with out getting > consent from him. > b) The Software drivers If I am not wrong May/Maynot provide enough info > always. (I know it depends). But at the levels of Drivers, If someone is REALLY > INTERESTED in GETTING to KNOW the HARDWARE LOGIC, the BINARY CODE IS IN ITSELF > MORE THAN SUFFICIENT MOST OF THE TIMES. > Thus I DON'T see as to WHAT advantage do hardware vendors have in NOT > RELEASING SOURCE based Drivers. PLEASE CLARIFY. > --------- > Keep :-) > HanishKVC > http://hanishkvc.tripod.com/ -- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 7 23:49:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA00924 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:49:14 -0800 Received: from pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (pneumatic-tube.sgi.com [204.94.214.22]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA00920 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:49:13 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (nodin.corp.sgi.com [192.26.51.193]) by pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id XAA09403 for <@external-mail-relay.sgi.com:linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org>; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:50:49 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id XAA13499 for <@relay.sgi.com:linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org>; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA17945 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:59:27 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA11883; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:15:32 +0530 (IST) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:15:32 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912080745.NAA11883@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Fwd: Linux headed for disaster? >> Doesn't Patents protect Or Isn't Binary code ENOUGH !!! << In-Reply-To: <9912080659.AA21275@ece.iisc.ernet.in> References: <99120810105000.01854@hanishkvc> <9912080659.AA21275@ece.iisc.ernet.in> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Now that we have Gopi's well-expressed opinions on the current GPL vs no-GPL debate raging in the list *duck*, I'd also like to suggest the judicious use of /.../ to highlight text. As can be seen from their inclination, /characters/ are meant to represent forward-leaning characters, i.e. italics. I differ from Gopi in the use of *...* .. *action* is used to express a deed in my book *reaching up for the stars* Another option is to use _text like this_, though that is normally reserved for references like names of books and articles. the _text_ means underlined text. And BTW, it's so much more fun to flame in lowercase, gently (with a chainsaw? :-) Regards, -- Raju >>>>> "Gopi" == Gopi K Garge writes: Gopi> Hanish, You might want to use prefix and suffix using a Gopi> character like "*" to highlight a point or a term in your Gopi> email; using upper case implies that you are shouting (as in Gopi> a flame...), which I presume is not what you are ... or are Gopi> you ? .. ;-) Gopi> --Gopi Gopi> C Hanish Menon sez: >> Hi >> This is a doubt I have, may be what I am thinking is wrong, >> Please do clarify. >> On Tue, 07 Dec 1999, Arun Sharma wrote: > But there are >> situations under which people want to preserve their > >> intellectual properties. And they should be free to do >> so. XFree86 4.0 > is being smart here in defining a binary >> interface. So if a graphic > chip vendor wants to release a >> binary only driver, I can use it with > XFree86 4.0. Sure it >> may not work as well as a source only driver, but > it's better >> than nothing. > >> When talking about not releasing Source based drivers we are >> talking about the possibility of one coming to know about the >> Hardware logic built into these cards or so if I am not >> wrong. Which the hardware vendor doesn't want others to use >> with out permission from him. But is this Binary only driver >> realy solving the above problem? My points for this are >> a) He can PATENT it if its REALY UNIQUE. and this should >> protect him from others taking undue advantage or copying his >> effort with out getting consent from him. >> b) The Software drivers If I am not wrong May/Maynot provide >> enough info always. (I know it depends). But at the levels of >> Drivers, If someone is REALLY INTERESTED in GETTING to KNOW the >> HARDWARE LOGIC, the BINARY CODE IS IN ITSELF MORE THAN >> SUFFICIENT MOST OF THE TIMES. >> Thus I DON'T see as to WHAT advantage do hardware vendors have >> in NOT RELEASING SOURCE based Drivers. PLEASE CLARIFY. >> --------- Keep :-) HanishKVC http://hanishkvc.tripod.com/ Gopi> -- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Wed Dec 8 01:38:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id BAA02542 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 01:38:23 -0800 Received: from uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in [202.141.1.17]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id BAA02538 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 01:38:16 -0800 Received: from ece.iisc.ernet.in (ece.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.64.2]) by uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA32666; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:11:01 +0530 Received: by ece.iisc.ernet.in (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25217; Wed, 8 Dec 99 15:06:14+0530 From: gopi@ece.iisc.ernet.in (Gopi K Garge) Message-Id: <9912080936.AA25217@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: [LI] Fwd: Linux headed for disaster? >> Doesn't Patents protect Or Isn't Binary code ENOUGH !!! << To: raju@sgi.com Date: Wed, 8 Dec 99 15:06:13 GMT+5:30 Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org In-Reply-To: <199912080745.NAA11883@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from "Raj Mathur" at Dec 8, 99 1:15 pm Phone: 91 80 334 0855 Request-Delivery-Notification: TRUE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Yep, like Raju points out _text like this_ kind of a markup _is_ elegant and down to earth ! ;-) --Gopi Raj Mathur sez: > Now that we have Gopi's well-expressed opinions on the current GPL vs > no-GPL debate raging in the list *duck*, I'd also like to suggest the > judicious use of /.../ to highlight text. As can be seen from their > inclination, /characters/ are meant to represent forward-leaning > characters, i.e. italics. > I differ from Gopi in the use of *...* .. *action* is used to express > a deed in my book *reaching up for the stars* > Another option is to use _text like this_, though that is normally > reserved for references like names of books and articles. the _text_ > means underlined text. > And BTW, it's so much more fun to flame in lowercase, gently (with a > chainsaw? :-) > Regards, > -- Raju > >>>>> "Gopi" == Gopi K Garge writes: > Gopi> Hanish, You might want to use prefix and suffix using a > Gopi> character like "*" to highlight a point or a term in your > Gopi> email; using upper case implies that you are shouting (as in > Gopi> a flame...), which I presume is not what you are ... or are > Gopi> you ? .. ;-) > Gopi> --Gopi > Gopi> C Hanish Menon sez: > >> Hi > >> This is a doubt I have, may be what I am thinking is wrong, > >> Please do clarify. > >> On Tue, 07 Dec 1999, Arun Sharma wrote: > But there are > >> situations under which people want to preserve their > > >> intellectual properties. And they should be free to do > >> so. XFree86 4.0 > is being smart here in defining a binary > >> interface. So if a graphic > chip vendor wants to release a > >> binary only driver, I can use it with > XFree86 4.0. Sure it > >> may not work as well as a source only driver, but > it's better > >> than nothing. > > >> When talking about not releasing Source based drivers we are > >> talking about the possibility of one coming to know about the > >> Hardware logic built into these cards or so if I am not > >> wrong. Which the hardware vendor doesn't want others to use > >> with out permission from him. But is this Binary only driver > >> realy solving the above problem? My points for this are > >> a) He can PATENT it if its REALY UNIQUE. and this should > >> protect him from others taking undue advantage or copying his > >> effort with out getting consent from him. > >> b) The Software drivers If I am not wrong May/Maynot provide > >> enough info always. (I know it depends). But at the levels of > >> Drivers, If someone is REALLY INTERESTED in GETTING to KNOW the > >> HARDWARE LOGIC, the BINARY CODE IS IN ITSELF MORE THAN > >> SUFFICIENT MOST OF THE TIMES. > >> Thus I DON'T see as to WHAT advantage do hardware vendors have > >> in NOT RELEASING SOURCE based Drivers. PLEASE CLARIFY. > >> --------- Keep :-) HanishKVC http://hanishkvc.tripod.com/ > Gopi> -- -- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Wed Dec 8 03:39:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id DAA04282 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 03:39:58 -0800 Received: from alabama.innomedia.soft.net (ns.innomedia.soft.net [164.164.79.130]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id DAA04278 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 03:39:41 -0800 Received: from hanishkvc (IDENT:hanishkvc@[192.168.1.154]) by alabama.innomedia.soft.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10515 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:50:59 +0530 From: C Hanish Menon Reply-To: hanish@innomedia.soft.net To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Fwd: Linux headed for disaster? >> Doesn't Patents protect Or Isn't Binary code ENOUGH !!! << Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:18:13 +0530 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <9912080659.AA21275@ece.iisc.ernet.in> In-Reply-To: <9912080659.AA21275@ece.iisc.ernet.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99120814224900.18187@hanishkvc> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi On Wed, 08 Dec 1999, Gopi wrote: > You might want to use prefix and suffix using a character like > "*" to highlight a point or a term in your email; using upper > case implies that you are shouting (as in a flame...), which > I presume is not what you are ... or are you ? .. ;-) > Sorry for not following netigrities.(spelling spelling no no). Yes I didn't want to shout here. I just wanted to emphasies the main points only. In future I will see to it that I don't Capitalize words unless I am shouting :-) --------- Keep :-) HanishKVC http://hanishkvc.tripod.com/ p.s: Sorry Gopi unknowingly I replied to your personal address earlier. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Wed Dec 8 13:27:17 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA08027 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:27:17 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA08023 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:27:10 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id PAA09688; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:24:02 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.4.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Wed Dec 8 15:24:01 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: LI traffic and a proposal References: <384855E3.814EE1C7@netscape.com> <19991205091138.A750@india.com> <87bt853wj8.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991207173837.A1297@india.com> <877liq32s3.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> <19991208100826.A1063@india.com> From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 08 Dec 1999 15:24:01 -0600 In-Reply-To: Mrinal Kalakrishnan's message of "Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:08:26 +0530" Message-ID: <87u2lt5dou.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>"Mrinal" == Mrinal Kalakrishnan writes: Mrinal> Hi, Mrinal> Manoj Srivastava typed: >> Before you start pushing security breaches down my throught, >> please explain how is it any less secure than allowing people >> to sign up to the list unauthenticated. Mrinal> That's true - it isn't any less secure than allowing anybody to sign Mrinal> up to the list. But it gives the so called ``spammers'' an advantage. Mrinal> Normally, they would have to subscribe to the list, and post their Mrinal> spam. (And receive a lot of mail in the process). But if this is Mrinal> implemented, it makes their work a lot easier, because their mailbox Mrinal> is not going to get flooded. Huh? You seem to have misunderstood the whole password scheme. Only *subscribers* get the authorization; and when you add an email address, it is linked to you. And when you unsubscribe, *all* your email addresses are gone as well (this is something that would be excrutiatingly laborious for thaths to do manually). manoj -- You could live a better life, if you had a better mind and a better body. Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 10 08:58:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id IAA31095 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:58:10 -0800 Received: from glaurung.green-gryphon.com (tiamat.ametro.net [209.102.145.185]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA31091 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:57:44 -0800 Received: (from srivasta@localhost) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id KAA14922; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 10:49:49 -0600 X-Mailer: emacs 20.4.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-7 I) X-Time: Fri Dec 10 10:49:48 1999 Mail-Copies-To: never To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: [Richard Stallman ] Re: [cle-devel] Re: fonts and patents From: Manoj Srivastava X-URL: http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ Organization: The Debian Project Date: 10 Dec 1999 10:49:48 -0600 Message-ID: <87yab23fmb.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Lines: 123 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk --=-=-= Hi, A few days ago, Richards insistence on calling things GNU/Linux and GNU/Hurd were given a passing reference on this list; and I thought it would be amusing if y'all could here it from the horses mouth, as it were. I do not feel strongly on this issue -- I feel that Richard has a point, but I also feel that the way he has gone around trying to make it has alienated a whole bunch of folks. So here it is, without any further commentary. manoj --=-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline X-From-Line: debian-legal-request@lists.debian.org Fri Dec 10 01:55:29 1999 Received: from smtp.ametro.net (srivasta@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by glaurung.green-gryphon.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with ESMTP id BAA25815 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 01:55:28 -0600 Received: from murphy.debian.org (murphy.debian.org [209.41.108.199]) by mail.datasync.com (8.8.8/Datasync) with SMTP id BAA00507 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 01:15:37 -0600 Received: (qmail 8045 invoked by uid 38); 10 Dec 1999 07:13:27 -0000 Resent-Date: 10 Dec 1999 07:13:27 -0000 Resent-Cc: "recipient.list.not.shown":; X-Envelope-Sender: rms@gnu.org Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:12:42 -0700 (MST) X-Gnus-Mail-Source: directory:~/var/spool/mail Message-Id: <199912100712.AAA09868@aztec.santafe.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: aztec.santafe.edu: rms set sender to rms@gnu.org using -f From: Richard Stallman To: foka@ualberta.ca CC: cle-devel@linux.org.tw, debian-legal@lists.debian.org, devel@freetype.org, blueslan@arphic.com.tw, ghost@aladdin.com In-reply-to: <19991208234631.A12113@lovelife.olvc.ab.ca> (message from Anthony Fok on Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:46:31 -0700) Subject: Re: [cle-devel] Re: fonts and patents Reply-to: rms@gnu.org References: <199912090155.SAA07940@aztec.santafe.edu> <19991208234631.A12113@lovelife.olvc.ab.ca> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: debian-legal@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/2633 X-Loop: debian-legal@lists.debian.org Precedence: list Resent-Sender: debian-legal-request@lists.debian.org X-SpamBouncer: 1.02 beta (11/27/99) X-SBPass: Legitimate Mailing List (Internal) X-SBClass: Bulk X-Sorted: Bulk X-Agent-list: debian-list X-Filter: mailagent [version 3.0 PL68] for srivasta@glaurung.green-gryphon.com Lines: 62 Xref: glaurung.green-gryphon.com debian-legal:1983 MIME-Version: 1.0 In my opinion, they are indeed extending the "Linux", although not just Linux, as you correctly stated. You're extending the operating system in which Linux is used. But this operating system is not Linux. Linux is the kernel. The kernel is an important part of the system, but a kernel is not useful by itself. It becomes useful as part of a whole system. Linux is typically used as a component in a system which is basically the GNU operating system. The whole system is the combination of GNU and Linux. In other words, it's GNU/Linux. I see your concern, but I want to point out that their work does have *something* to do with Linux. They (directly or indirectly) contribute to the Chinese Linux Documentation Project (CLDP); they patched the Linux kernel to support Chinese filenames; they started on Red Hat Linux; Actually, the name "Linux Documentation Project" is a misnomer, because only prt of their documentation is about Linux. Much of it is about other parts of the GNU/Linux system. "Red Hat Linux" is also a misnomer; that is a version of the GNU/Linux system. Developing the GNU operating system is the GNU Project's purpose. We've been working on this system since 1984, and we are its principal developers. Would you please give us credit for this, by using our name when you talk about the system? Please call it GNU/Linux. Giving credit is the right thing to do--but in this case, there's a more important reason. We started this project with idealism for freedom and cooperation; the GNU operating system is our idealism, made real. Users should know this! Users should know that idealism can be practical, sometimes more practical than anything else. If users know where the system really comes from, they will understand this. Please see http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html for more explanation. So, perhaps the CLE would be better named as "CGE" or "CGLE", as the Chinese GNU/Linux Extension Project. That would be great--it would really help to explain the truth to people in China. It could create major confusion though, as the name "CLE" has been around for two (?) years and is quite well known among Chinese (GNU/)Linux communities. It is not hard to explain this sort of name change, especially since you can keep the old domain names and aliases working. So this change would only cause a small transient. And it would help end a much larger confusion. So thank you in advance if you make this change. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org --=-=-= -- Your CHEEKS sit like twin NECTARINES above a MOUTH that knows no BOUNDS -- Manoj Srivastava 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C --=-=-=-- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 10 12:34:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA32498 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:34:54 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA32494 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:34:52 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03529 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:34:48 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:34:48 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Good NY times article on VA IPO Message-ID: <19991210123447.A3499@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/12/biztech/articles/10linux.html [...] Linux grew out of the GNU Project, an effort to build a free operating system similar to Unix. Although the Linux kernel and associated GNU (pronounced NEW) components can be downloaded for free by anybody, more than 22 companies now sell GNU/Linux software. The best known are Red Hat, Suse, Turbo Linux, Caldera Systems and Mandrake Soft. Looks like Stallman PR at work :-) Too many inaccuracies though. But I think they have a good assessment of the VA fundamentals. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 10 16:58:03 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id QAA02444 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:58:03 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id QAA02440 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:58:01 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04122; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:57:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:57:57 -0800 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <199912110057.QAA04122@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Fwd: WWW: Linux India Pages Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma) Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk More people who want to call their web page Linux India. -Arun > From: "Vijay Kittu" Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce Subject: WWW: Linux India Pages Followup-To: comp.os.linux.misc Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 01:23:46 GMT Organization: none Lines: 32 Approved: linux-announce@news.ornl.gov (Mikko Rauhala) Message-ID: Reply-To: "Vijay Kittu" NNTP-Posting-Host: krummhorn.in.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 944868628 1365 128.214.182.105 (10 Dec 1999 23:30:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1999 23:30:28 GMT Old-Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 07:26:42 -0800 X-No-Archive: yes Xref: newshub1.home.com comp.os.linux.announce:30006546 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I'm happy to announce the availability of Linux Links Page - Indian Edition There some excting links on the Linux front Check it out at http://linuxindia.itgo.com/ Vijaya Kittu M E-Mail : vijaykittu@yahoo.com Celebrating X-Mas in a better way. http://vizag.8m.com/xmas.htm - -- This article has been digitally signed by the moderator, using PGP. http://www.iki.fi/mjr/cola-public-key.asc has PGP key for validating signature. Send submissions for comp.os.linux.announce to: linux-announce@news.ornl.gov PLEASE remember a short description of the software and the LOCATION. This group is archived at http://www.iki.fi/mjr/linux/cola.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQCVAgUBOFGno1rUI/eHXJZ5AQFkKQP/anILw0ZEhuoGNL+nJRdOwPtj0ZovTWRV 2kU10cpJDQdcN+PhMaX8bMhmedFaxl0qE+3zynCNR1NNZOQJRXZNfH34nkzu7MiB oDIiLOX3njQ0UIuuTXf6T0MOJLkxWuOu61tSJs7S0UGpaweTFzizjmlU5CZhOsmg tgUzYpXsJqM= =yTJg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 12 04:35:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id EAA14621 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 04:35:07 -0800 Received: from -s (goa1.dot.net.in [202.54.17.30]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id EAA14609; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 04:35:00 -0800 Received: from suman.greenfields.universe (root@[202.54.17.43]) by -s (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA10075; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 18:06:55 +0530 (GMT) Received: from localhost (grbhat@localhost) by suman.greenfields.universe (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01912; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 18:04:21 +0530 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 18:04:19 +0530 (IST) From: "Gurunandan R. Bhat" To: linux-india@lists.linux-india.org cc: linux-delhi@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com, linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: [LI] Comdex and what followed In-Reply-To: <199912120254.IAA29816@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 12 Dec 1999, Raj Mathur wrote: > Some discussion took place about organising a Linux Seminar in Goa in > Fall 2000 with big name speakers whom LI can sponsor and pay for. I > hope Guru is listening :-) Listening, Ready and RAAAARRRRIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG to go.......... Thanks to Raj, Atul and Kishore for the superb show at Comdex, Delhi. Maybe sidcarter should send Mukhi a Debian CD to install, now ...:::))))) From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 12 14:07:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA25161 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:07:59 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@PPP-187-203.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.187.203]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA25148; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:07:50 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA13895; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 03:37:40 +0530 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 03:37:39 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List cc: Linux India Mailing List Subject: Re: [LI] Comdex and what followed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk The account of what happened at the event, along with photographs, is now available at http://www.linux-india.org/comdex99. Discussions in linux-india-general. Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 12 16:31:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id QAA26504 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 16:31:59 -0800 Received: from eth.net (smtp.eth.net [202.9.145.18]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id QAA26463; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 16:31:46 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by eth.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:06:47 +0530 Received: from www.aunet.org ([216.103.113.202]) by eth.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 13 Dec 1999 03:44:45 +0530 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA25203; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:08:03 -0800 Received: by www.aunet.org (bulk_mailer v1.11); Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:07:59 -0800 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id OAA25152 for linux-india-outgoing; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:07:57 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@PPP-187-203.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.187.203]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id OAA25148; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:07:50 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA13895; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 03:37:40 +0530 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 03:37:39 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List cc: Linux India Mailing List Subject: Re: [LI] Comdex and what followed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Loop: linux-india@lists.linux-india.org Reply-To: linux-india@lists.linux-india.org X-Url: http://www.linux-india.org Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk The account of what happened at the event, along with photographs, is now available at http://www.linux-india.org/comdex99. Discussions in linux-india-general. Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- The Linux India Mailing List Archives are now available. Please search the archive at http://lists.linux-india.org/ before posting your question to avoid repetition and save bandwidth. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 00:23:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA31838 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 00:23:47 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (PPP-187-201.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.187.201]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA31834 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 00:23:22 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15663; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:35:36 +0530 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:35:36 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: IBM endorses Linux in India Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Just received a flyer from IBM India. Makes good reading. Here is the text for your reading pleasure: Envelope - a silver plastic anti-static cover usually used to pack important electronic parts such as CPUs. A yellow sticker on it, saying "ENCLOSED: A CRITICAL PART THAT'S BEEN MISSING FROM YOUR SERVER" Front - a shot of a Netfinity 7000 server, with the text "Netfinity does linux" on it. Back - "LINUX Any server, if it's built like Netfinity, can boast a couple of things. Reliability being one of them. Scalability being another. Then, of course, there is the price-performance ratio. Which leaves us with just one thing. Linux. That thing on top. It is the most openm most revolutionary, most robust operating system known to wired man. It is virtually indestructible. It is taking the Information age by storm. Its is supported by a growing army of developers across the planet. And it is about to change the way servers are built. Not long from now, Linux will help systems everywhere to become open, platforms everywhere to interoperate, versions everywhere to meet up, and applications everywhere to shake hands. In short, Linux will be everywhere tomorrow. For the impatient, it is here today. On IBM's award-winning range of Netfinity servers. To find out more, call IBM or email sjyothi@in.ibm.com right away. We'll help you with that critical part missing from your server. Specially if it is the server." Good stuff. I'll scan this thing and put it up later today. First time a flyer like this really excited me. They apparently mailed this to thousands of corporate chiefs countrywide. Talk about commitment to Linux - no one does it in a more noticable fashion than IBM. ;-) Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 08:56:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id IAA06324 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:56:29 -0800 Received: from -s (goa1.dot.net.in [202.54.17.30]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA06319 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:56:25 -0800 Received: from suman.greenfields.universe (root@[202.54.17.34]) by -s (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA24196 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:28:16 +0530 (GMT) Received: from localhost (grbhat@localhost) by suman.greenfields.universe (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02497 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:24:31 +0530 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:24:29 +0530 (IST) From: "Gurunandan R. Bhat" cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: IBM endorses Linux in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Atul Chitnis quoted an IBM flyer: > In short, Linux will be everywhere tomorrow. > > For the impatient, it is here today. On IBM's award-winning range of > Netfinity servers. And close on its heels comes the news that IBM has commissioned SuSE to write a socalled "RedBook" detailing the installation of SuSE Linux on different servers of the Netfinity Class. To see this WIP check out: From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 09:42:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id JAA06896 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:42:34 -0800 Received: from -s (goa1.dot.net.in [202.54.17.30]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id JAA06892; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:42:29 -0800 Received: from goanews ([202.54.17.107]) by -s (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id XAA25698; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:14:21 +0530 (GMT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991213151945.007ce7c0@202.54.17.30> X-Sender: fred@202.54.17.30 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:19:45 +0500 To: linux-india@lists.linux-india.org, linux-delhi@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com, linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org From: Frederick Noronha Subject: LINUX-ILUG-Goa: Meeting on Saturday Dec 18 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Goa's Linux users' group ILUG(Goa) meets this weekend Date : Dec 18, Saturday Time : 4 pm Venue : CSI (Goa chapter) 3rd Flr, Naguesh Apts Opposite Hotel Navtara, Panjim (Panjim Market Area... ask anyone) We are a small group of Linux fans, and our meeting are held at the office of the Computer Society of India (Goa unit), to whom we are thankful. Meetings are held on the last Saturday of every month... preponed to the third Saturday this month because the last falls on a public holiday, Christmas. All are welcome. --Frederick Noronha 0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0 Frederick Noronha, Freelance Journalist, 784 Saligao 403511 Goa India fred@goa1.dot.net.in or fred@vsnl.com Ph (0091).832.271490 / 27 86 83 0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0 Pls visit my photos-from-Goa website at http://www.goa-world.net/fotofolio From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 11:27:03 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA08044 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:27:03 -0800 Received: from smash.justliketv.com (smash.justliketv.com [204.247.189.199]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA08040 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:27:01 -0800 Received: from gunsmoke.justliketv.com (gunsmoke [10.10.10.5]) by smash.justliketv.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA57043 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:27:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by gunsmoke.escalate.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:27:00 -0800 Message-ID: <8336E6B21CEAD2119CA70008C7BF23825B5EA5@gunsmoke.escalate.com> From: Arun Sharma To: "'linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org'" Subject: suckdot Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:26:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk http://www.suck.com/daily/99/12/13/daily.html -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 11:43:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA08184 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:43:24 -0800 Received: from cal.vsnl.net.in (cal.vsnl.net.in [202.54.9.25]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA08179 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:43:16 -0800 Received: from indradg.cal.vsnl.net.in (ppp116-121.pppcal.vsnl.net.in [203.197.116.121]) by cal.vsnl.net.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id BAA01472 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 01:48:48 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912132018.BAA01472@cal.vsnl.net.in> From: "Indranil Das Gupta" To: "'linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org'" Subject: Re: suckdot Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 01:16:52 +0530 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Arun.... ROFLMAO! --Indra. ---------- From: Arun Sharma To: 'linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org' Subject: suckdot From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 18:02:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id SAA09825 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:02:06 -0800 Received: from sgi.com (sgi.SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA09821 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:02:04 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com ([192.26.51.193]) by sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id SAA05077; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:01:52 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA97615; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id HAA70356; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:31:59 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA10483; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:28:08 +0530 (IST) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:28:08 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912140158.HAA10483@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Arun Sharma Cc: "'linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org'" Subject: suckdot In-Reply-To: <8336E6B21CEAD2119CA70008C7BF23825B5EA5@gunsmoke.escalate.com> References: <8336E6B21CEAD2119CA70008C7BF23825B5EA5@gunsmoke.escalate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Uh, could one get some idea of what the URL is about before one hits it? Thanks, -- Raju >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> http://www.suck.com/daily/99/12/13/daily.html Arun> -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 18:23:13 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id SAA09943 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:23:13 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA09939 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:23:11 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13294 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:23:10 -0800 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:23:10 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: "'linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org'" Subject: Re: suckdot Message-ID: <19991213182310.A13275@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <8336E6B21CEAD2119CA70008C7BF23825B5EA5@gunsmoke.escalate.com> <199912140158.HAA10483@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199912140158.HAA10483@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from Raj Mathur on Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 07:28:08AM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 07:28:08AM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: > Uh, could one get some idea of what the URL is about before one hits > it? I could've tried - but I wouldn't have done justice to the page :) -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 19:08:26 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id TAA10007 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:08:26 -0800 Received: from uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in [202.141.1.17]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA10003 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:08:21 -0800 Received: from ece.iisc.ernet.in (ece.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.64.2]) by uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA01433; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:43:07 +0530 Received: by ece.iisc.ernet.in (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28449; Tue, 14 Dec 99 08:38:17+0530 From: gopi@ece.iisc.ernet.in (Gopi K Garge) Message-Id: <9912140308.AA28449@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: IBM endorses Linux in India To: grbhat@exocore.com (Gurunandan R. Bhat) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 99 8:38:16 GMT+5:30 Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org In-Reply-To: ; from "Gurunandan R. Bhat" at Dec 13, 99 10:24 pm Phone: 91 80 334 0855 Request-Delivery-Notification: TRUE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Gurunandan R. Bhat sez: > On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Atul Chitnis quoted an IBM flyer: > > In short, Linux will be everywhere tomorrow. > > > > For the impatient, it is here today. On IBM's award-winning range of > > Netfinity servers. I do not recall Atul mentioning this, but the contact mentioned on the IBM flyer was 'sjyothi@in.ibm.com' - the same Jyothi who made the Netfinity possible for the IT.COM '99 ? > And close on its heels comes the news that IBM has commissioned SuSE to > write a socalled "RedBook" detailing the installation of SuSE Linux on > different servers of the Netfinity Class. To see this WIP check out: > ....a red paper too ! --Gopi From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 20:05:38 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA10710 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:05:38 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@[202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA10706 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:05:27 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17856 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:35:00 +0530 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:35:00 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <871z904ngt.fsf@glaurung.green-gryphon.com> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Interesting article on RMS's reaction to Eric Raymond making money in the recent VALinux sweepstakes IPO: http://www.digitalmass.com/news/daily/1213/raymond.html I reserve comments, because I am sure that Raj, Arun and Manoj will be the right people to analyse this one. Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 20:50:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA11109 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:50:23 -0800 Received: from stpb.soft.net (stpb.soft.net [164.164.4.5]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA11105 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:50:16 -0800 Received: from blr.vsnl.net.in ([164.164.82.20]) by stpb.soft.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19770 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:28:04 -0500 (GMT) Message-ID: <3855CBCD.664BEC7A@blr.vsnl.net.in> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:17:09 +0530 From: Dakshinamurthy Karra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Atul Chitnis wrote: > I reserve comments, because I am sure that Raj, Arun and Manoj will be the > right people to analyse this one. If anything, it increases *my* appreciation for Stallman. As far as setting "bad precedent" goes I do not know what Raymond's stand will be when RH or VA goes away from Opensource for the sake of profits - a company should increase the wealth of its investors right? -- KD From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 20:58:45 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA11229 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:58:45 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@[202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA11225 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:58:39 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18014; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:28:16 +0530 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:28:15 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Dakshinamurthy Karra cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <3855CBCD.664BEC7A@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Dakshinamurthy Karra wrote: > when RH or VA goes away from Opensource for the sake of profits - a > company should increase the wealth of its investors right? *Very* unlikely - not even the worst OpenSource detractor can hope to see Bob Young or Larry Augustine dropping Linux in favour of profits. And remember - they *would* have to drop Linux, since neither Linus nor the community will allow Linux to go closed source. Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 21:05:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA11356 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:05:11 -0800 Received: from stpb.soft.net (stpb.soft.net [164.164.4.5]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id VAA11346 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:04:59 -0800 Received: from blr.vsnl.net.in ([164.164.82.20]) by stpb.soft.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21264; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:42:03 -0500 (GMT) Message-ID: <3855CF15.A7BAE5AC@blr.vsnl.net.in> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:31:09 +0530 From: Dakshinamurthy Karra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atul Chitnis CC: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Atul Chitnis wrote: > *Very* unlikely - not even the worst OpenSource detractor can hope to see > Bob Young or Larry Augustine dropping Linux in favour of profits. And > remember - they *would* have to drop Linux, since neither Linus nor the > community will allow Linux to go closed source. Not really. We are not talking about only linux kernel here. There are a lot of associated tools also. And as far as VA or RH are concerned they both already have some closed-source stuff in them. What prevents from the boards deciding that the closed portions should go from say 2% now to 50% later. -- KD From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 13 21:37:03 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA11704 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:37:03 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@[202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id VAA11697 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:36:27 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18122 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:06:11 +0530 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:06:10 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <3855CF15.A7BAE5AC@blr.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Dakshinamurthy Karra wrote: > Not really. We are not talking about only linux kernel here. There are a > lot of associated tools also. And as far as VA or RH are concerned they > both already have some closed-source stuff in them. What prevents from > the boards deciding that the closed portions should go from say 2% now > to 50% later. OK, so Catch-22 (BTW Joseph Heller, the author of Catch-22, is dead - check out http://cnn.com/1999/books/news/12/13/obit.heller.ap/): In order to be successful as a business, VA and RH need to include closed-source apps (thirdparty - not their own, since their own stuff is *always* opensource, as is *everything* related to the OS). But if they do, they get blacklisted by RMS's rules. Now there is no question that Linux has been successful because of its adoption by the corporate world, but if one plays by these rules, it is not possible to cater to them. RMS's stand is that everything should be free software (i.e. source available) - a stand that Raymond is far more flexible on (he says that closed source apps are acceptable if the company chooses not to make source for their own stuff available for commercial reasons). So if I understand this right, in order for Linux to be successful, it must shun everything that could make it successful. Hmmmm..... Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 14 08:07:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id IAA12715 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:07:16 -0800 Received: from stpb.soft.net (stpb.soft.net [164.164.4.5]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA12698 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:07:04 -0800 Received: from blr.vsnl.net.in ([164.164.82.20]) by stpb.soft.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16388; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:09:16 -0500 (GMT) Message-ID: <3855FFA4.2D223009@blr.vsnl.net.in> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:58:20 +0530 From: Dakshinamurthy Karra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atul Chitnis CC: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Atul Chitnis wrote: > > Now there is no question that Linux has been successful because of its > adoption by the corporate world, but if one plays by these rules, it is > not possible to cater to them. > Sorry no. Linux has been adopted by the corporate world because it is successful. Because, it solved some of their problems. Because it provided them a cheaper/stabler alternative to the products they were using. Saying linux is successful because corporate adoption is putting the cart before the horse. My personal belief is that not contributing to a community from which you gain something is unfair. GPL forces this, where as other licenses make this optional. > RMS's stand is that everything should be free software (i.e. source > available) - a stand that Raymond is far more flexible on (he says that > closed source apps are acceptable if the company chooses not to make > source for their own stuff available for commercial reasons). > I am not talking about the stands here (Though I tend to lean more towards what RMS says). RMS could stand up and say NO to a few millions for the sake of his beliefs. How many others we know did this? Revolutions are made by people who are obstinate and who are willing to sacrifise for these beliefs. No one can ever dispute the commitment of RMS for what he believes. The only other person who comes to my mind is Gandhi (Manoj mentioned it already, I believe). -- KD From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 14 08:09:56 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id IAA12875 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:09:56 -0800 Received: from exocore.com ([202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA12843 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:09:34 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19259 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:12:31 +0530 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:12:30 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Opensource article at CIOL Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Check out this article: ENTERPRISE LINKS : MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU The force is with Open Source software which is helping create products proven to be more reliable than commercial software. But will the habit of giving away code for free cause programmers to starve in the future? http://www.ciol.com/content/Technology/Elinks/99121301.asp No comment. Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 14 08:10:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id IAA12910 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:10:05 -0800 Received: from exocore.com ([202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA12891 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:09:57 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18612 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:32:45 +0530 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:32:44 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <199912140741.NAA11637@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Raj Mathur wrote: > Do they? I don't agree that you have to include closed-source apps in > order to make a successful business. Apps can always be purchased > from III-parties if the customer really wants them and free software > equivalents aren't available. There's no golden rule which says that > you /have/ to make proprietary apps available with your Linux distro > in order for it to be successful, which is what I hear you saying. And they don't - all distros are available completely devoid of closed-source stuff (example RH's "RMS" edition, and of course Debian). To get the commercial apps (which are closed source, you specifically need to purchase the package that contains these apps - RH's $79 edition is an example. There are no closed source components in any of the downloadable versions of RH, Debian or Suse that I know of - everyone of them makes the source to stuff developed by them available. > Uh, let's distinguish between Linux distributions and Linux apps. I > can continue to market a completely open-source Linux distro while > other people make the proprietary apps which run on that > distribution. For a while, at least, until they either change or get > wiped out :) True, and that's exactly the way it goes. I do not see a conflict in our viewpoints here. However, I *do* see conflict if the broad message being put out to the world is that the Linux community frowns on closed source, commercial apps. It is extremely unlikely that we will see Oracle putting out the source code to their stuff in our life time. The important point that should not be missed here is that there is a whole economy built on paid-for software and services. People like Oracle or IBM would instantly lose credibility with their customers were they to change their model suddenly, because their own customers, who have paid for the software in the past, and invested heavily, will be pretty upset. That alone is enough reason to prevent people like Microsoft to from *ever* making their source code available. Sun's offer to make source code available is not the same as open-sourcing it (as Maddog made clear the other day). But it will help bridge the two worlds to some extent. Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 14 09:07:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id JAA14876 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:07:06 -0800 Received: from pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (pneumatic-tube.sgi.com [204.94.214.22]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id JAA14872 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:07:02 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (nodin.corp.sgi.com [192.26.51.193]) by pneumatic-tube.sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id XAA08192; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:46:46 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id XAA18304; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:44:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA76629; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:15:13 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA11637; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:11:27 +0530 (IST) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:11:27 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912140741.NAA11637@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Atul Chitnis Cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: References: <3855CF15.A7BAE5AC@blr.vsnl.net.in> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Atul" == Atul Chitnis writes: Atul> [snip] Atul> In order to be successful as a business, VA and RH need to Atul> include closed-source apps (thirdparty - not their own, Atul> since their own stuff is *always* opensource, as is Atul> *everything* related to the OS). Do they? I don't agree that you have to include closed-source apps in order to make a successful business. Apps can always be purchased from III-parties if the customer really wants them and free software equivalents aren't available. There's no golden rule which says that you /have/ to make proprietary apps available with your Linux distro in order for it to be successful, which is what I hear you saying. Atul> Now there is no question that Linux has been successful Atul> because of its adoption by the corporate world, but if one Atul> plays by these rules, it is not possible to cater to them. Uh, let's distinguish between Linux distributions and Linux apps. I can continue to market a completely open-source Linux distro while other people make the proprietary apps which run on that distribution. For a while, at least, until they either change or get wiped out :) -- Raju From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 14 09:46:35 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id JAA15973 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:46:35 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id JAA15958 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:46:32 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA15043 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:46:31 -0800 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:46:31 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Message-ID: <19991214094631.A14998@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <3855FFA4.2D223009@blr.vsnl.net.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <3855FFA4.2D223009@blr.vsnl.net.in>; from Dakshinamurthy Karra on Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 01:58:20PM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 01:58:20PM +0530, Dakshinamurthy Karra wrote: > > Revolutions are made by people who are obstinate and who are willing to > sacrifise for these beliefs. No one can ever dispute the commitment of > RMS for what he believes. The only other person who comes to my mind is > Gandhi (Manoj mentioned it already, I believe). RMS is certainly one of the most obstinate and principled people that I've seen. Very sure and uncompromising about what he believes in. The parallels to Gandhi here are very appropriate. But we have to bear in mind that Gandhi's teachings are applicable only in some situations. You can't for example go into a war and preach non violence. Lenin was a revolutionary, Hitler was one, Khomeni was one too. They all had a sense of purpose and a large following. Perhaps their actions were right in the situations they found themselves in. But if you take their solutions to specific problems and try to apply it to everything, it isn't going to work. Specifically, we all agree that Free software is great, works well in many real world situations. But the main disagreement is - should *all* software be free ? Should we *force* all software to be free ? And I don't think we have an agreement on that. The only rational thing to do - is to make your choices and continue to follow your principles. But life isn't that simple. There are a lot of people who don't have the time/energy to do the investigation themselves (Ah, I don't want any more of the GPL discussion types) - so such discussions are necessary every now and then for the new masses rushing onto the Linux bandwagon. But lets not get these discussions overwhelm us ok ? Save some time to write code :-) -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 14 11:35:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA16671 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:35:06 -0800 Received: from blr.vsnl.net.in (blr.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.6]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA16667 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:35:02 -0800 Received: from indica (indica@PPP-190-195.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.190.195]) by blr.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA02711; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:58:09 +0530 (IST) From: Dakshinamurthy Karra Organization: Subex Systems Ltd. To: Arun Sharma , Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:02:28 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <3855FFA4.2D223009@blr.vsnl.net.in> <19991214094631.A14998@sharmas.dhs.org> In-Reply-To: <19991214094631.A14998@sharmas.dhs.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99121501053500.00939@indica> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Arun Sharma wrote: > Save some time to write code :-) What do you think I am doing at 1AM ;-). -- KD From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 14 20:09:39 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA18920 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:09:39 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA18913 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:08:37 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21305 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:38:25 +0530 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:38:25 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: [LI] Message from RMS. In-Reply-To: <99121501053500.00939@indica> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Dakshinamurthy Karra wrote: > On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Arun Sharma wrote: > > Save some time to write code :-) > What do you think I am doing at 1AM ;-). Well, definitely not putting up Gandalf's article, for one..... :-( Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Wed Dec 15 04:24:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id EAA23047 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 04:24:29 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id EAA23025 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 04:24:06 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23426 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:53:08 +0530 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:53:08 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Linux and Java--a tale of two revolutions Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Good stuff about why Linux will win, and Java may not. http://www.ciol.com/content/columns/lastword/99121501.asp Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Wed Dec 15 08:43:55 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id IAA25645 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:43:55 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA25641 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:43:52 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA18726; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:43:46 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:43:46 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Atul Chitnis Cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: Linux and Java--a tale of two revolutions Message-ID: <19991215084346.A18690@sharmas.dhs.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Atul Chitnis on Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 05:53:08PM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 05:53:08PM +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote: > Good stuff about why Linux will win, and Java may not. > > http://www.ciol.com/content/columns/lastword/99121501.asp But some things just defy logic - I'm a Java hater, because I don't believe that programming it is any easier than writing C/C++ code and I have to pay a huge performance and memory footprint penalty. But what worries me is the army of new developers coming out of schools from their object oriented programming classes, who just love Java. The place where it has really succeeded is the server side business logic aka application server market. No one writes C/C++ code there. And there is a noticable move away from CGI and perl in that market at the high end. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Wed Dec 15 09:20:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id JAA26078 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:20:30 -0800 Received: from deliverator.sgi.com (deliverator.sgi.com [204.94.214.10]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id JAA26074 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:20:27 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com (nodin.corp.sgi.com [192.26.51.193]) by deliverator.sgi.com (980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id JAA14711; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:16:01 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id JAA22199; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:20:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id WAA98868; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:50:04 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA23047; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:46:23 +0530 (IST) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:46:23 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912151716.WAA23047@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Arun Sharma Cc: Atul Chitnis , Linux India General List Subject: Re: Linux and Java--a tale of two revolutions In-Reply-To: <19991215084346.A18690@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <19991215084346.A18690@sharmas.dhs.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Java's write-once-deploy-anywhere is very attractive to people. Combine that with the magic of OOP (it's still magic, even if it sucks unless you're really good at design), and you have a winning combination in the market. Now if only Netscape had embedded Perl as a VM instead of Java, we could have been breaking new barriers everyday. But Java? Bah, it's too restrictive, it's too slow, it's too controlled for a freedom-loving person (some may read ``anarchist'' here) like me. One of the reasons I never took up Pascal actually -- I want a language which lets me make mistakes if I want to, not one which molly-coddles me... I already have a Mother :-) Regards, -- Raju >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 05:53:08PM +0530, Atul Chitnis Arun> wrote: >> Good stuff about why Linux will win, and Java may not. >> >> http://www.ciol.com/content/columns/lastword/99121501.asp Arun> But some things just defy logic - I'm a Java hater, because Arun> I don't believe that programming it is any easier than Arun> writing C/C++ code and I have to pay a huge performance and Arun> memory footprint penalty. Arun> But what worries me is the army of new developers coming out Arun> of schools from their object oriented programming classes, Arun> who just love Java. Arun> The place where it has really succeeded is the server side Arun> business logic aka application server market. No one writes Arun> C/C++ code there. And there is a noticable move away from Arun> CGI and perl in that market at the high end. Arun> -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Wed Dec 15 10:01:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA26415 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:01:53 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@[202.141.1.228]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA26410 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:01:41 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA24899 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:31:18 +0530 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:31:18 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: Re: Linux and Java--a tale of two revolutions In-Reply-To: <199912151716.WAA23047@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Raj Mathur wrote: > Java's write-once-deploy-anywhere is very attractive to people. > Combine that with the magic of OOP (it's still magic, even if it sucks > unless you're really good at design), and you have a winning > combination in the market. Now if only Netscape had embedded Perl as > a VM instead of Java, we could have been breaking new barriers > everyday. I agree. It is actually the early adoption by people like Netscape (who thought they could replace the OS with their browser) that caused the whole Java thingy to take off. The lemmings syndrome at work. I mean, any dope would have realised that MS would go and pervert the environment to put an end to this "write once, run anywhere" business, which is really the only reason why one would consider it. > One of the reasons I never took up Pascal actually -- I want a > language which lets me make mistakes if I want to, not one which > molly-coddles me... I already have a Mother :-) This means war! ;-) I can make as many mistakes as I want in Pascal (especially FreePascal) - it is up to me whether I let the compiler die on the compile or accept my better judgement. Seriously - I really cannot figure out how this is supposed towork - Java programs are as huge as C/C++ programs, and as Arun has pointed out, they need tons of RAM. How are they *ever* going to build a Toaster big enough to put that into???? Atul From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Wed Dec 15 10:13:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA26467 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:13:40 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA26463 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:13:37 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19058; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:12:41 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:12:41 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Atul Chitnis Cc: Linux India General List Subject: Re: Linux and Java--a tale of two revolutions Message-ID: <19991215101241.A19038@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <199912151716.WAA23047@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Atul Chitnis on Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 11:31:18PM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 11:31:18PM +0530, Atul Chitnis wrote: > Seriously - I really cannot figure out how this is supposed towork - Java > programs are as huge as C/C++ programs, and as Arun has pointed out, they > need tons of RAM. How are they *ever* going to build a Toaster big enough > to put that into???? Actually, the bytecodes that make up the compiled java programs are optimized for space rather than performance. The Java virtual machine is a stack based machine. Operands are always on the top of the stack and implicit. On a 64 bit machine, you have to specify memory addresses or one of the zillion registers as a part of each instruction. In Java bytecodes that comes for free. But it also restricts the number of optimizations the compiler can perform. On the other hand, the JIT compiler can perform certain optimizations at runtime (with the knowledge that you're running on a PIII for example), which a C compiler can't do at compile time. This is exactly the area Mr Torvalds is working on at Transmeta. Java is also like Emacs to some extent - it wants to startup, take big resources, but it wants to stay there. It is not feasible to start a new emacs for every file that you want to edit. Similarly, if you startup Java once and let it stay there till the machine reboots, the resource issues aren't that bad. This is how embedded Java is supposed to work. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 16 02:55:44 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id CAA25094 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:55:44 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (IDENT:root@d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id CAA25090 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:55:33 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA26693 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:24:46 +0530 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:24:46 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: Linux India General List Subject: CIOL Poll Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk CIOL is currently running a poll of the Millenium. Linux is currently leading Microsoft Windows in the Technology of the decade 35% to 28%. For info at http://www.ciol.com/millenium Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 16 03:00:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id DAA25128 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:00:43 -0800 Received: from uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in [202.141.1.17]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id DAA25124 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:00:33 -0800 Received: from ece.iisc.ernet.in (ece.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.64.2]) by uumail-relay-blr.ernet.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA13705; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:35:19 +0530 Received: by ece.iisc.ernet.in (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23877; Thu, 16 Dec 99 16:30:26+0530 From: gopi@ece.iisc.ernet.in (Gopi K Garge) Message-Id: <9912161100.AA23877@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: CIOL Poll To: achitnis@exocore.com (Atul Chitnis) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 99 16:30:25 GMT+5:30 Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org In-Reply-To: ; from "Atul Chitnis" at Dec 16, 99 4:24 pm Phone: 91 80 334 0855 Request-Delivery-Notification: TRUE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Atul Chitnis sez: > CIOL is currently running a poll of the Millenium. > Linux is currently leading Microsoft Windows in the Technology of the > decade 35% to 28%. > For info at http://www.ciol.com/millenium Windows Technology ?? New word ... Ne'er heard that before ... ;-) --Gopi From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 16 13:01:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id NAA29578 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:01:10 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA29574 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:01:08 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA22191 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:01:07 -0800 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:01:07 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Brave GNU world about the word "virus" Message-ID: <19991216130107.A22177@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk http://www.gnu.org/brave-gnu-world/issue-10.en.html search for viral in the thread about the GNU project's reaction to the phrase "GPL virus". There is a direct comparision to FreeBSD license. Ultimately, it comes down to limiting freedoms. Should the freedom of people to sell closed source software for money be limited is the real question. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 16 18:48:44 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id SAA31408 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:48:44 -0800 Received: from sgi.com (sgi.SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id SAA31402 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:48:40 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com ([192.26.51.193]) by sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id SAA08241; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:34:55 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA08059; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id IAA18763; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:05:05 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00252; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:01:22 +0530 (IST) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:01:22 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912170231.IAA00252@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Arun Sharma Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Brave GNU world about the word "virus" In-Reply-To: <19991216130107.A22177@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <19991216130107.A22177@sharmas.dhs.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Uh, are we still talking about this? And since you asked the question (I presume it's not rhetorical), the answer is Yes, people's freedom to hoard anything should be limited, whether it's atta or software. Just because you apply the label of freedom to something doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing: Hitler had freedom to kill millions of Jews. Regards, -- Raju >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> http://www.gnu.org/brave-gnu-world/issue-10.en.html search Arun> for viral in the thread about the GNU project's reaction to Arun> the phrase "GPL virus". Arun> There is a direct comparision to FreeBSD Arun> license. Ultimately, it comes down to limiting freedoms. Arun> Should the freedom of people to sell closed source software Arun> for money be limited is the real question. Arun> -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 16 19:05:49 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id TAA31584 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:05:49 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA31580 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:05:47 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23233; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:05:46 -0800 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:05:46 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Raj Mathur Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Brave GNU world about the word "virus" Message-ID: <19991216190546.A23218@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <19991216130107.A22177@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912170231.IAA00252@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199912170231.IAA00252@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from Raj Mathur on Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 08:01:22AM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 08:01:22AM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: > Uh, are we still talking about this? I don't think this one is going to stop - as long as people keep writing about it. > > And since you asked the question (I presume it's not rhetorical), the > answer is Yes, people's freedom to hoard anything should be limited, > whether it's atta or software. I work hard during the summer and stock pile my atta to enjoy it at a later point. Why should I yield it to some lazy bum who spends all his time sleeping ? It's *my* software and I decide if I want to give it away :-) Another point: your point of view can never be enforced legally, except in a communist country. What I'm preaching is already legal in most countries and will remain that way. Closed source software will continue as long as magicians don't give away their tricks, books sell for money and I can have a personal bank account. Till the next such article from the GNU project, -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 16 19:56:08 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id TAA31986 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:56:08 -0800 Received: from sgi.com (sgi.SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA31982 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:56:06 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com ([192.26.51.193]) by sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id TAA02952; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:56:04 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id TAA92900; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:55:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id JAA05736; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:26:12 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA00529; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:22:29 +0530 (IST) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:22:29 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912170352.JAA00529@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: Arun Sharma Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Brave GNU world about the word "virus" In-Reply-To: <19991216190546.A23218@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <19991216130107.A22177@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912170231.IAA00252@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991216190546.A23218@sharmas.dhs.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk I think I need once again to go into the difference between having a bank account and software (stop groaning, you out there!) I fail to understand why people insist on equating free software and the GPL with their right to make money. Software is software. Money is money. If you share the one, it increases. If you share the other, it decreases, or at best remains the same. Keeping atta for your lean periods is not called hoarding. Keeping atta which is meant to be distributed in a godown and waiting for the price to rise is called hoarding. Perhaps the Linux-India site should have a link to Merriam-Webster on the Web for quick lookups of common words? As far as the enforceability of free software is concerned, you don't need any support except copyright from the state, whether it be Capitalism, Communism, whatever-ism -- as far as I know the GPL works the same in all countries with any pretence to a legal infrastructure. You might just be pleasantly surprised if you go beyond labels (Communism, freedom, etc) and look at ideas on their individual merit. The habit of classifying and dismissing (Oh, it's just another rapidly-approaching meteorite on an earth-intercept orbit, now that we know what it is let's ignore it) can be very dangerous! In other words, I don't want Oracle to give away their software -- I'll wait until a reasonably functional free equivalent is present, and wait for Oracle to die, as will most companies which insist on taking from the community without giving anything back in return. Regards, -- Raju >>>>> "Arun" == Arun Sharma writes: Arun> On Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 08:01:22AM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: >> Uh, are we still talking about this? Arun> I don't think this one is going to stop - as long as people Arun> keep writing about it. >> And since you asked the question (I presume it's not >> rhetorical), the answer is Yes, people's freedom to hoard >> anything should be limited, whether it's atta or software. Arun> I work hard during the summer and stock pile my atta to Arun> enjoy it at a later point. Why should I yield it to some Arun> lazy bum who spends all his time sleeping ? Arun> It's *my* software and I decide if I want to give it away Arun> :-) Another point: your point of view can never be enforced Arun> legally, except in a communist country. What I'm preaching Arun> is already legal in most countries and will remain that way. Arun> Closed source software will continue as long as magicians Arun> don't give away their tricks, books sell for money and I can Arun> have a personal bank account. Arun> Till the next such article from the GNU project, Arun> -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 16 21:30:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA00799 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:30:53 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id VAA00795 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:30:51 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA23801; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:30:48 -0800 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:30:48 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Raj Mathur Cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Re: Brave GNU world about the word "virus" Message-ID: <19991216213048.A23584@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <19991216130107.A22177@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912170231.IAA00252@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> <19991216190546.A23218@sharmas.dhs.org> <199912170352.JAA00529@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199912170352.JAA00529@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com>; from Raj Mathur on Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 09:22:29AM +0530 Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 09:22:29AM +0530, Raj Mathur wrote: > I think I need once again to go into the difference between having a > bank account and software (stop groaning, you out there!) Hmm, last time around your definition included only those things which don't cost anything to copy. This time it included Atta, which comes very close to money. > I fail to understand why people insist on equating free software and > the GPL with their right to make money. Because GPL tries to tell me how not to make money. It therefore interferes with my right to make money as I please. Note that I am not be free to make money by killing others. This is enforced by law. If it is bad, it should be illegal. Again, making closed source software illegal brings us back to communism. > Software is software. Money > is money. If you share the one, it increases. If you share the > other, it decreases, or at best remains the same. Atta doesn't fit the model. > Keeping atta for > your lean periods is not called hoarding. Keeping atta which is meant > to be distributed in a godown and waiting for the price to rise is > called hoarding. Who decides what is hoarding and what is not ? RMS ? GNU project ? Or me ? > As far as the enforceability of free software is concerned, you don't > need any support except copyright from the state, whether it be > Capitalism, Communism, whatever-ism -- as far as I know the GPL works > the same in all countries with any pretence to a legal infrastructure. I'm not talking about the GPL license here. It's the GNU philosophy and the goal of making all software free. If RMS becomes the president of USA and tries to enforce his views, USA will be called a communist country. Communist governments can exist in a democracy. But democracy can't exist in communist countries. BSD licensed code can exist in a GPL kernel, but not the other way round. > You might just be pleasantly surprised if you go beyond labels > (Communism, freedom, etc) and look at ideas on their individual merit. > The habit of classifying and dismissing (Oh, it's just another > rapidly-approaching meteorite on an earth-intercept orbit, now that we > know what it is let's ignore it) can be very dangerous! Agree. I like ideas like co-operative credit unions as opposed to banks. I like non-profit health insurance, automobile insurance associations as opposed to their ultra commercial counterparts, whose presence in the food chain doesn't do anyone any good (except for the skyscrapers in major downtowns). -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 18 11:48:35 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id LAA06459 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:48:35 -0800 Received: from goa1.dot.net.in (goa1.dot.net.in [202.54.17.30]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id LAA06454 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:48:31 -0800 Received: from goanews ([202.54.17.96]) by goa1.dot.net.in (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id BAA12376 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 01:20:23 +0530 (GMT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991219005139.007c70d0@202.54.17.30> X-Sender: fred@202.54.17.30 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 00:51:39 +0500 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org From: Frederick Noronha Subject: ILUG(GOA): Linux meet, Dec 18 report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk INDIA LINUX USERS' GROUP (GOA) * BRIEF REPORT OF MEETING 18.12.99 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * LINUX -- one of the hottest things happening today in computers. If you're not teaching your students Linux, they're missing out. India Linux Users Group (Goa) offers free support to computer institutes that wish to teach Linux to their students. Contact grbhat@unigoa.ernet.in (Prof Gurunandan Bhat) or arvind@opspl.com (Arvind Yadav) or fred@vsnl.com (Frederick Noronha) for details. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * India Linux Users Group (Goa) met on December 18, 1999. It was a marathon meet that went on for over 200 minutes. We were thrilled to have Linux guru Atul Chitnis present for the meet. It was also really nice to have some prominent computer gurus representing major Goa-based firms -- like Dempos, Philcorp, ControlNet and others -- present for this small but very interesting meet. Some prominent decisions and suggestions: * DMC College Mapusa student Vishal Chodnekar stressed the need to encourage private computer training centres to offer courses in Linux. * Earlier decision to hold a Linux instal-fest was reviewed. It was decided to go ahead with the same, and Prof Bhat suggested that the Panjim-based school, Mustifund, would be willing to act as a partner for staging this programme. * CDs with Linux kernel and applications (including Star Office) would be burnt and made available to those interested, at cost. * Set of applications relevant for the teaching of computers in schools would be put together, to allow for the easy spread of Linux popularity. * Prof G R Bhat said he was working on a plan to give a Tiswadi school (Rosary-Dona Paula) a Linux-based shared Internet access and email accounts for students. Some feedback that came up at the meet: * Dempo deputy GM Mr Mahambre says he got "hooked onto Linux" when he started hearing good reports about it of late. But the lack of free machines, pressures of work and Y2K pressures means his firm is yet to get into Linux. "We are still in an experimental stage," says he. * Vivek Pai Angle of the Agnel Polytech Computers Lab wanted to know if ILUG could help the institution in setting up Linux. There were pledges for help on this front. * PhilCorp's Anil Seth said the photography major was using Linux for a number of applications. The firm had also developed a point-of-sale Linux-based software for photo-labs. There were a group of six to seven persons working on that application at the Tivim Industrial Estate, and over a dozen working on Linux in the firm. Other polytech students were also accepted to undertake Linux-based projects, he reported. * ControlNet's Sunil Nambiar said the firm was using x-based applications for connecting to Sun systems. Earlier, it used NT, but now it has six to seven stations using Linux for desktops, and one Internet server. * Arvind Yadav pointed out that Star Office had been downloaded both by the National Institute of Oceanography and Goa University, and he planned to cut these onto CDs for distribution. * Members at the meet spoke about the atrocious prices that some proprietary software was being quoted at. * Atul Chitnis reported that NIIT was a corporate leader in Linux usage. It already had 500+ installations, and had already announced a new Linux course, teaching RedHat 6.0 * Chitnis also felt that not sufficient was being done in India to "Indianise" Linux as an operating system, with regional language fonts. Diverse efforts are being undertaken in different directions, he lamented. Many technical problems were discussed threadbare, and the presence of Atul Chitnis helped all of us at the meet. Please note: ILUG(Goa) meets on the last Saturday of every month at the Computer Society of India, 3rd Floor, Opposite Navtara, Panjim Market Area, Panjim. (Ph 22 96 05) Next meeting: Jan 29, 2000. Present for the ILUG-Goa meeting on Dec 18, 1999: * Atul Chitnis, Bangalore * Anselm Almeida, Scientist, NIO anselm@csnio.ren.nic.in * Animesh N Nerurkar, Auto Engineering Student punni@satyam.net.in * Prakash R Mahambre, Dy GM (EDP) Dempos EDP@dempos.com * Vivek Pai Angle, Lab Asst, Fr Agnel's Polytech Ph 22 80 20 * Sunil Nambiar, ControlNet India suniln@controlnet.co.in * Arvind Yadav, Online-Goa, arvind@opspl.com * Alhad Caculo. Ph 23 19 61 * Anil Seth, Philcorp aseth@phil.com.sg or anilseth@goa1.dot.net.in * Vishal Chodnekar, Student BSc (Comp Sc) viren00@hotmail.com * Oscar Mascarenhas, Dy Mgr, Goa Carbon. mascaren@goa1.dot.net.in * B B Shaha, ETDC (GoI) etdc@goa.goa.nic.in * Prof G R Bhat, Goa Univ. grbhat@unigoa.ernet.in * D Shankar, Scientist, NIO shankar@csnio.ren.nic.in * Dominic Fernandes, Software Engineer Herald hppltd@goa1.dot.net.in * Frederick Noronha, Journalist fred@vsnl.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * INDIA LINUX USERS' GROUP (GOA) NEXT MEET: JAN 29, 1999 4PM CSIGOA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sun Dec 19 17:48:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id RAA21266 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:48:22 -0800 Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (IDENT:root@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id RAA21262 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:48:21 -0800 Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA30761 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:48:17 -0800 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:48:17 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Amazon CEO is the Time man of the year Message-ID: <19991219174817.A30754@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19991219/ts/people_bezos.html Interesting in light of RMS's call to ban Amazon. Personally, I'm with RMS on this one. The other day I was kidding that the company that I work for, which is also into E-commerce, should implement scroll + 1 click buy to get around Amazon's 1 click buy patent. But I admire Amazon at the same time - they're the largest retailer on the internet and have been instrumental in the way we use the net forever. The problem really is the US patent office. Not Amazon. -Arun From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Mon Dec 20 21:11:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id VAA31120 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:11:42 -0800 Received: from thinkpad.exocore.com (IDENT:root@[202.54.17.59]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id VAA31111 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:11:30 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by thinkpad.exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02638 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:46:24 +0530 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:46:24 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Jerry Pournelle installs Linux Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk JP may not be the most lued in guy in the universe, but he just upped his image a bit by successwfully installing Linux. And unearthing a rather weird Corel support problem. http://www.byte.com/column/BYT19991215S0024 OK, I am off to the beach again....Goa is great - the sky is clear, the beaches clean and only moderately crowded, the drinks are cool and the food is fabulous! And I even got to attend a ILUG-Goa meet! Heaven! Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 21 02:36:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id CAA03619 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 02:36:07 -0800 Received: from stpb.soft.net (stpb.soft.net [164.164.4.5]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id CAA03615 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 02:35:52 -0800 Received: from blr.vsnl.net.in ([164.164.82.20]) by stpb.soft.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA10402 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:13:56 -0500 (GMT) Message-ID: <385F575B.A34B2CAE@blr.vsnl.net.in> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:02:59 +0530 From: Dakshinamurthy Karra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Another of idealistic personalities Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Check this out: http://www.smh.com.au/news/9912/18/business/business3.html Hm.. the world is not devoid of great personalities. -- KD From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 23 05:10:38 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id FAA26692 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 05:10:38 -0800 Received: from sgi.com (sgi.SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id FAA26688; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 05:10:36 -0800 Received: from nodin.corp.sgi.com ([192.26.51.193]) by sgi.com (980327.SGI.8.8.8-aspam/980304.SGI-aspam: SGI does not authorize the use of its proprietary systems or networks for unsolicited or bulk email from the Internet.) via ESMTP id FAA06353; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 05:10:30 -0800 (PST) mail_from (raju@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com) Received: from sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.2]) by nodin.corp.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id FAA98020; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 05:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com [134.14.90.52]) by sgindia.newdelhi.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA67831; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:40:35 +0530 (IST) Received: (from raju@localhost) by bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA02854; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:35:49 +0530 (IST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:35:49 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912231305.SAA02854@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com> From: Raj Mathur To: linux-delhi@bhairavi.newdelhi.sgi.com, linux-india@lists.linux-india.org, linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: SETI update, interesting facts X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: raju@sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk OK, the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence continues. Some factoids which have come to my notice since I first downloaded the program and started running it... 1. Who's the fastest? http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/users.html (~130K) says that Sun is the group (note, NOT company) with the largest number of submitted results. Team SGI (of which I'm part) is at number 2. However, interestingly, the lowest average CPU time per data block goes to (you guessed it!) the Alpha, which clocks in at under 2 hours per block, even though they're only at position 11 in the list. 2. Where's India? We just crawled past Venezuela to reach position 51 sometime early this morning (IST). C'mon, another 10 people get SETI@Home running on their computers and we'll beat Colombia to be in the top 50! Our averages for time per block (~22 hours) are quite reasonable. More information at: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/countries.html 3. Operating Systems Assuming similar hardware, Linux turns up much faster than Winduhs NT, 95 or 98, doing on the average a block every 14.5 hours as compared to NT's 21 hours, and 95's 31 hours. NT 5 (whatever that is) tries to come close at ~15 hours per block. I guess we /do/ know something they don't, right? :-) The link is at: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/oss.html The fastest OS's on the planet (doing SETI) are Compaq/Digital Tru64 Unix (the Alpha FP operations rock!) closely followed by IRIX 6.5 (hmm, SGI rocks quite a bit too :-) 4. How fast is the distributed computer? AFAIK SETI@Home is the fastest supercomputer in the world currently, clocking in at over 10 TeraFLOPS. Anyone confirm or deny this? SETI@Home has currently been contributed ~140,000 years of CPU time from volunteers. 5. Where am I? My personal stats are at: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/cgi?name=raju%40sgi.com&cmd=user_stats I'm in the top 75 percentile right now, with 20 results submitted (expect 2 more in a couple of hours). Rank-wise it sucks: I'm at position 369013 out of over 1.5 million users. Hmm, somehow I doubt I'll get anywhere fast rank-wise, with my three slow CPU's creaking out results at the rate of 1 every 18 hours or so. Now if only they let me play with that 8-CPU Origin2000 which is lying unused in office :-) Join up and put those unsused office computers to some use, folks! It doesn't cost you anything, and it's our chance to show what India and Linux can do together. Of course, if you /do/ happen to catch the signal that those little green dogs from Sirius have been beaming at us all these years, well, what can I say? You're made for life! Regards, -- Raju From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Thu Dec 23 20:54:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id UAA30473 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:54:37 -0800 Received: from thinkpad.exocore.com (IDENT:root@[202.54.17.58]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id UAA30469 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:54:10 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by thinkpad.exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00994; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:26:36 +0530 Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:26:31 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Gentlemen - a big moment in our collective lives: The UK Government has given the official stamp of approval to Linux when it comes to security. It also endorses the "Open Source is more secure than closed source" contention that we have been propagating, and warns about the pitfalls of commercial closed source software. Raj, you can now update your slides with this *official* reference! http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/1999/50/ns-12266.html Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 24 15:18:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id PAA04084 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:18:59 -0800 Received: from goa1.dot.net.in (goa1.dot.net.in [202.54.17.30]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA04080 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:18:56 -0800 Received: from goanews ([202.54.17.99]) by goa1.dot.net.in (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id EAA29403 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 04:50:41 +0530 (GMT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991225032531.007c14e0@202.54.17.30> X-Sender: fred@202.54.17.30 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 03:25:31 +0500 To: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org From: Frederick Noronha Subject: bYtES For aLL Issue # 5 , January 2000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk If you would like a copy of this full compilation, just mail me at and write in the subjectline SEND B4AFIVE. Below are some excerpts that might be relevant for Linux fans... In its entirety, this file is about 32K in size. FN 01010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010 10101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 01010101 bYtES For aLL * bYtES For aLL * bYtES For aLL 10101010 10101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 n e w t e c h n o l o g i e s w i l l m e a n h a v i n g m o r e i n t h e h a v e-n o t c a m p i f w e a r e n o t c a r e f u l 10101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 01010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010 0101010101 1010101010 0101010101 Issue No 5 * Jan 2000 1010101010 1010101010 AN OCCASIONAL NEWSLETTER TO MAKE 0101010101 0101010101 COMPUTING AND TECHNOLOGY 1010101010 1010101010 FRIENDLY TO THE NEEDS OF THE MILLIONS 0101010101 1010101010 Editor: Frederick Noronha fred@vsnl.com 0101010101 0101010101 1010101010 10101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 01010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010 INTERNET IN SOUTH ASIA: VARIED VIEWS IN PROMINENT ACADEMIC JOURNAL +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Info courtesy: EPW The Economic and Political Weekly of Bombay (Nov 20, 1999 issue) carries a range of articles on the Internet in South Asia. * The Internet offers some hope to the people of the region who live in widely disparate living environments and particularly in remote communities. But in order to take full advantage of this new technology, there is a need to evolve regional and region- specific norms and practices. A recent conference on the subject has thrown up several relevant issues. * A review of telecommunication networks in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal reveals that they are in uniformly poor shape. There is an emerging scope for rationalising telecom policies with a view to convergence of communication technologies across the region. * The regulatory climate in South Asia has only recently welcomed private Internet service providers. The challenge lies in creating a level playing field so that the digital divide between rural and urban, non-English and English-speaking South Asia can be minimised and eliminated. * A review of online content in South Asian countries with a special focus on the number of websites, local relevance, community involvement, directories, search engines, advertisement revenue and third party audits. Also policy suggestions for content development. http://www.epw.org.in or http://www.south-asian-initiative.org/epw MAKING TELECOM AND I.T. AFFORDABLE FOR THE THIRD WORLD ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Info courtesy: Vickram Crishna COMMSPHERE 2000 is an international conference on 'Affordable Telecom and IT Solutions for Developing Countries'. It is to be held from February 28 to March 2, 2000 at the IIT-Chennai (Madras) in India. Accessibility to telecom and Internet network is fast becoming a major factor determining the competitiveness of an individual, group or society. This conference will focus on the needs of, and affordable solutions for, developing countries. Details: commsphere@tenet.res.in http://www.tenet.res.in/commsphere/commsphere.html Also contact: Prof. Ashok Jhunjhunwala, Convener, COMMSPHERE 2000, Dept. of Electrical Engineering, Indian Institute of Technology, Chennai - 600 036, INDIA Telefax: +91-44 235-2120 Ph: +91-44 235-2120/445 8414/445 8366/4909048. FREE OPERATING SYSTEMS: HAVE YOUR PICK +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Info courtesy: .NET, India's first Internet magazine An India-based group has launched a new Web site that offers users 11 different operating systems, including Linux, and their accompanying documentation. The FreeOS.com site is based in Mumbai, India, and it staunchly opposes the lucrative practice of charging for operating systems. Besides the increasingly popular Linux, other operating systems supported by FreeOS.com include FreeBSD, BPMK, Cynus, FreeDos, Freedows, GNU Hurd, Minix, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and VSTa. While the site offers support for all 11 free operating systems, FreeOS.com says that the vast majority of activity in the market revolves around Linux and will probably remain that way for the forseeable future. Details from Prakash Advani, prakash@freeos.com http://www.freeos.com BIGGEST LINUX CONFERENCE PLANNED IN INDIA IN FEB 2000 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Info courtesy: Express Computer, http://www.expresscomputerindia.com BANG!LINUX is "the biggest Linux conference that India has every witnessed". It is definitely meant for those who are Linux programmers, or want to become one. Others would gain from coming too. It is to be held in the South Indian city of Bangalore from February 25 to 27, 2000. speakers are to be a combination of several important local personalities, and some of the biggest names in the Linux community. Including Richard Stallman, Alan Cox and Atul Chitnis. There will be over 20 sessions covering a broad range of exciting technical areas. You could meet, learn from and exchange ideas with over 2500 progammers, developers, industry professionals, and all the big players from the Linux community including SuSE and Red Hat, according to the organisers. Register at http://www.linux-conferences.com Details: Vijay Tase, vstase@hotmail.com DEVELOPMENT TOOLS FOR INDIAN LANGUAGES +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Info courtesy: Centre for Dvpt of Advanced Computing, CDAC India ISM API Software Development Kit contains fonts, keyboard driver, API library and DDE server that enables application development for data entry, storage, retrieval and printing in Indian scripts using Windows-based front end development tools (VB 5.0 or 6.0, Visual FoxPro, MS Access, Power Builder, etc). It facilitates processing of Indian language strings in alphabetic characters, allowing sorting, indexising and searching. NTrans is a software that undertakes transliteration from English to Indian languages and vice versa. Ideal for applications like preparation of telephone directories, pay roll, invoicing, custom application, etc. Available for both South and North Indian languages. Available as an utility for conversion of Text and DBF files, and as a library which can be integrated into one's application. GistSDK (Software Development Kit) uses Microsoft's advanced ActiveX technology and provides a seamless, transparent and self- contained Indian language layer for data entry, storage, retrieval and printing in Indian scripts for your MS Windows 9X or NT applications. It can be used with any of the latest application development tools providing 'OLE Container' support like Visual Basic 5.0 or 6.0, Visual C 4.2 or later, PowerBuilder 5.0 or later, Delphi 3, etc. GistSDK consists of a set of DLLs (Dynamic Link Libraries) with necessary APIs, a set of ActiveX controls and true type fonts. One can develop a completely self- contained Indian language enabled application rapidly with ease using standard front-end development tools. Also available are the GIST Card and GIST Shell Library for application development under the DOS platform. Details from: gist@cdac.ernet.in or cdacd@bol.net.in or gist@cdacb.ernet.in or cdacm@vsnl.com STUDY SHOWS POVERTY BLOCKS SPREAD OF CYBER-BENEFITS +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Info courtesy: Margaret Wertheim / Sunday Age, Australia It is becoming clear that opening up the net to everyone will be a good deal more problematic than much of the rhetoric would have us believe. A report in June by the prestigious Association for Computing Machinery (ACM), entitled The Internet in Developing Countries, stresses that, for most of the world, Internet access remains a rare and costly thing. In Ghana, for example, the cost of an account with Africa Online is $US50 a month, almost twice the average monthly income - and more than twice what it costs for unlimited access in the US. The ACM report notes that in many countries there is a crippling lack of low-cost regional IP (internet provider) backbones. Moreover, in many regions of the world telephone services are still extremely limited; and for billions of people poverty remains an enormous barrier. That point is reinforced by Indian net activist Venkatesh Hariharan, an associate professor at the Indian Institute of Information Technology. Forget logging onto the Internet, he says because two-thirds of the world's people have never made a phone call. UN's W.I.D.E. TO FOSTER TECH COOPERATION AMONG THIRD WORLD +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Info courtesy: Yzette Terreblanche The United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) - Special Unit for Technical Cooperation among Developing Countries (TCDC) is in the process of launching an Initiative known as Web of Information for Development (WIDE), designed to foster technical cooperation among developing countries (TCDC). WIDE Online is a public access database containing user- maintained data on experts, institutions and "best" practices. WIDE Online is up and running and will be launched globally very shortly. Under a UNDP agreement with the Brazilian government WIDE Online now provides access to the bio-data of 38,000 Brazilian experts' and to over 300,000 Brazilian publications. This data is available under a collaboration agreement with the Brazilian Ministry of Science and Technology. ENQUIRIES: Atsede Worede Kal, Information Services Officer of the UNDP - TCDC E-mail: atsede.worede-kal@undp.org WWW: http://www.undp.org/tcdc or http://www.wide.org.br PACT FOR RURAL E-MAIL IN THE THIRD WORLD +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Info courtesy: Gary Garriott On December 10, Henry Norman, President of the nonprofit Volunteers in Technical Assistance (VITA) announced the signing of an innovative agreement that will permit it and its collaborators to bring low cost email services to rural and isolated areas of developing countries. The other signatories to the unique agreement are commercial companies, Wavix, Inc. of Maryland (Wavix), and the Surrey Satellite Technology, Ltd., of Guildford England (SSTL). VITA is dedicated to bringing technical assistance to the developing world. In 1993, VITA received a "Pioneer's Preference" license from the Federal Communications Commission for its early work in non-military applications of low earth orbiting satellites. A three party agreement has been worked out under which, SSTL will lease a transponder on UoSAT-12 to VITA, and VITA will operate the transponder in accordance with the terms of its FCC authorization for a low earth orbit satellite system. VITA will sub-lease capacity to Wavix, which will make financing available for the arrangement with SSTL. VITA is entitled to use 50 percent of the capacity to serve rural populations in the developing countries and Wavix, Inc. will use the balance except for a small amount reserved to SSTL. This complex arrangement took a year to negotiate. However, the parties feel they have achieved a win-win situation in which the interests of all three organizations, particularly VITA's commitment to bring communications to rural populations, are dramatically advanced. More info: Gary Garriott (VITA), garyg@vita.org John Borden (Wavix), john.borden@wavix.com Holly Ladd (SatelLife), hladd@usa.healthnet.org Jeff Ward (SSTL), j.w.ward@eim.surrey.ac.uk I.T. IN ASIA, A GREAT DEAL OF INFORMATION +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Info courtesy: Roger Harris Copies of the proceedings of CITA'99 (520 pages), Conference on IT in Asia, the Asian regional conference of the IFIP 9.4 Working Group on the social implications of computers in developing countries, held in Kuching, Malaysia in September 1999, are available at US$25 plus post and packing. The conference featured 40 papers from 10 countries organized into six tracks: national perspectives; applications; IT in education; organisational responses; adoption of IT; and cultural aspects. Contact Hadijah Morni, at mhadijah@fit.unimas.my SECOND GKII MEET IN MALAYSIA IN MARCH +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Info courtesy: Rinalia Abdul Rahim The Second Global Knowledge Conference (GKII) begins on March 7, 2000 in Malaysia. Some of the themes to be taken up include building knowledge societies; addressing the information divide; transforming governance and empowering people; knowledge and innovation for sustainable development; enabling effective participation in decision making; empowering people through the knowledge-based economy; building virtual communities and cultural diversity in the 21st century; promoting life-long learning; shaping collaborative ICT development and initiatives for global prosperity; balancing economic development and environmental protection. The Knowledge Fair runs from March 7 to 10, 2000. NEWS AND VIEWS FROM THE GLOBAL KNOWLEDGE PARTNERSHIP +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Info courtesy: Lesley Anne Simmons PARTNERS is the newsletter of the Global Knowledge Partnership, and brings you news and views from GKP, via mail and the Internet, monthly. Submissions are welcome. Partners is issued monthly, if you wish to receive this regular briefing, or if you know of others who ought to receive it, please send mailing details or e-mail address to lsimmons@worldbank.org Comments and suggestions? Items for inclusion? Send them to the same address. Partners is the newsletter of the Global Knowledge Partnership, a growing partnership of public, private and not-for-profit organizations working together to help people access knowledge and harness information and communications technologies that will help them live meaningful and fruitful lives. Editor: Lesley Anne Simmons, The Global Knowledge Partnership Secretariat, c/o The World Bank Institute, The World Bank, 1818 H Street NW, Washington D.C. 20433 Tel: 1 202 473-1785 Fax: 1 202 522-1492 e-mail: globalknowledge@worldbank.org website: www.globalknowledge.org WANTED: COLLABORATORS FOR BYTESFORALL +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Comment by Frederick Noronha BytesForAll, a not-for-profit network meant to focus on how computers and the Internet can be used to address the human needs of South Asia, earnestly seeks collaboration from volunteers. In particular we seek inputs and information from those keeping track of developments taking place in other areas of South Asia. Any volunteers? Please contact fred@vsnl.com and partha@drik.net that is Frederick Noronha (Goa-India) and Partha Sarker (Dhaka- Bangladesh). Meanwhile, a big thank you to Zubair Faisal Abbasi for offering to send in updates for BytesForAll from Pakistan. Abbasi is Information Manager of the Sustainable Development Networking Programme in Islamabad. More about it on the site http://www.sdnp.org.pk We are also more than grateful for all the kind words and offers of support for this young project. You can help us greatly by (i) spreading the BytesForAll message by circulating this issue among relevant mailing-lists and individuals (ii) sending us news-clips from your region that fits into the BytesForAll agenda (iii) putting us in touch with people doing similar work worldwide (iv) building up regional BytesForAll initiatives in areas not currently adequately supported (v) in any other way you deem fit. Further details about BytesForAll from http://www.bytesforall.org ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bYtES For aLL * Compiled jointly by Frederick Noronha, Journalist 403511 Goa India fred@vsnl.com and Partha Pratim Sarker, Drik Multimedia, Dhaka 1209 partha@drik.net Compiled in public interest * CopyLeft May be freely circulated provided entire message is left intact. Please draw our attention to any incorrect links noticed above. Updates, earlier issues and more at http://www.bytesforall.org ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Sat Dec 25 19:40:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id TAA09984 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 19:40:31 -0800 Received: from bgl2.vsnl.net.in (bgl2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.12.46]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA09980 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 19:40:25 -0800 Received: from udhay (PPP-182-139.bng.vsnl.net.in [203.197.182.139]) by bgl2.vsnl.net.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA22840; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 09:00:22 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <199912260330.JAA22840@bgl2.vsnl.net.in> X-Pgp-Dsskey: 0x55FAB8D3 X-Pgp-Rsakey: 0x99DBC4F5 X-Nil: Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 09:11:36 +0530 To: "Arun Mehta" , "India Gii" From: Udhay Shankar N Subject: Re: FW: Journalist Needs info on Linux Use in India Cc: r_v_p@hotmail.com, linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk At 08:42 AM 12/26/99 +0530, Arun Mehta forwarded: > >A Journalist Needs Info on Linux Use in India. Can you please post it on >India GII ? It would make more sense to ask this question on the Linux-India list. I have copied it there for your convenience... Udhay -- _____________________________________________________________________ http://www.unimobile.com/ http://pobox.com/~udhay Unimobile - the world's first internet mobile Now Live ! From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 28 00:43:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA00396 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:43:53 -0800 Received: from net.mvmsoft (root@[203.197.153.200]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA00390 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:43:17 -0800 Received: (from mvm@localhost) by net.mvmsoft (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00971 for linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:11:17 +0530 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:11:17 +051800 From: Manoj Victor Mathew To: LIG Mailing List Subject: Re: [LI] Re: DVD-ROM on Linux? Message-ID: <19991228141117.B943@net> References: <19991218112639.A23799@attglobal.net> <385D0229.8EEA7550@vsnl.com> <19991219112233.B30147@sharmas.dhs.org> <385DEFE8.B6A8D2B0@vsnl.com> <19991219213425.A31296@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19991219213425.A31296@sharmas.dhs.org>; from Arun Sharma on Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 09:34:25PM -0800 Organization: MVM Softwares (http://mvm.linuxbox.com) X-Advice: Use only free software! (http://www.gnu.org) Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 09:34:25PM -0800, Arun Sharma wrote: > In short, the benefits of open source software are significant and > well understood, thanks to the press that Linux has been getting > recently. IMO, No, the press has /not/ highlighted the essence of the GNU movement. The press has positioned GNU/Linux as a viable alternative to WinNT and other OSes, but GNU/Linux has much more that what the press says. > > But if companies want to write closed source enhancements to open > source software either directly or indirectly, let them do it. It only > benefits the average Linux user with more choice Availability of closed source enhancements to free software might bring immediate benefits to the average Linux user. But by /not/ allowing closed source enhancements, the average Linux user will benefit much more in the long run. Free software enhancements will give much more choice than closed source enhancements. But today, with closed source software dominating, it may take more time for free software enhancements to come out. > to run open source software, which works well for certain classes of > problems, where security, stability are important or pay and run > commercial software, which works better for certain other classes > of problems/situations. There is no such rule that free software is good for only such and such things, and pay-and-run is good for some other specific needs. All software can be used for everything! There can be non-free software with better security and stability than free-software equivalents. Also there can be free software with better features (you haven't mentioned non-free software features above ;-) ) than non-free software equivalents. India is a free country. I have freedom. I shall resist any force that tries to take away my freedom. Similarly, if all software is free, then I shall not go for non-free software even if it gives me more features. Instead I shall try to make a free software equivalent. VMWare is great. But it is non-free. I need a free software equivalent. And I am planning to contribute to freemware if I can! > To put it crudely, if Microsoft makes an ultra proprietary MS Linux, > your freedom has not been compromised. You are just as free as you are > today to run your distribution of choice. > MS Linux being proprietary, I will not be able to use their ideas. If source code for MS Linux is not available, and if the software community is not allowed to /use/ the source code, other software will not be able to benefit from it. We will end up reinventing the wheel many times. This 'ultra proprietary MS Linux', will take away my freedom to benefit from the copy of MS Linux, I bought. In a world where there is only free software, an 'ultra proprietary MS Linux' must be seen as a freedom killer. And it will take away my freedom, if everybody starts using this 'ultra proprietary MS Linux'. Again, if everybody in India forget about the freedom of speech, we have, then what good will my freedom be? I will be beaten up by gangsters/police/neighbours/friends if I alone decide to exercise my freedom of speech. -- Do you support 'free software'? Visit http://mvm.linuxbox.com Manoj Victor Mathew (GPG#: 3D96A9B9) Cochin, India. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Tue Dec 28 00:44:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id AAA00428 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:44:10 -0800 Received: from net.mvmsoft (root@[203.197.153.200]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id AAA00392; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:43:38 -0800 Received: (from mvm@localhost) by net.mvmsoft (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00962; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:10:47 +0530 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:10:47 +051800 From: Manoj Victor Mathew To: LIG Mailing List Cc: LI Mailing List Subject: Re: [LI] Re: DVD-ROM on Linux? Message-ID: <19991228141047.A943@net> References: <19991218112639.A23799@attglobal.net> <385D0229.8EEA7550@vsnl.com> <19991219112233.B30147@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19991219112233.B30147@sharmas.dhs.org>; from Arun Sharma on Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 11:22:33AM -0800 Organization: MVM Softwares (http://mvm.linuxbox.com) X-Advice: Use only free software! (http://www.gnu.org) Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 11:22:33AM -0800, Arun Sharma wrote: > The technology is controlled by the movie > and the media industry. Their livelihood depends on being able to sell > content in a controlled way - very similar to the way Bill Gates sells > software for money Well it is like saying "Bidis should not be banned because many bidi makers, make a livelihood out of it." Have you read through the EULA in Win95? Is it not a bag of restrictions? Are they not dictating what I am supposed to do with my hardware? How can I trust my hardware to them? > - also something that is opposed tooth and nail by the GNU project. That is exactly why I like the GNU project. It ensures freedom. > (b) Stop calling LGPL lesser GPL and stop asking library authors to > GPL their libraries to prevent commercial software from being > ported to Linux. Even LGPL has elements which prevent commercial > software from using the libraries in question - but it is far more > benign compared to GPL. > If I do not encourage the use of GPL, then who will? Who will bring about the GNU revolution? Each and every one us have that responsibility. LGPL was renamed Lesser GPL, because when LGPL stood for Library GPL, many started using LGPL for all their libraries. This is not what LGPL was initially meant to be. LGPL was created as a inferior form of GPL license. But it was named Library GPL because LGPL was suited best for licensing libraries. LGPL is there because it can hasten the GNU revolution. IMHO there will be no LGPL in future, because all software will be GPLed. > (c) Give up on the *all* software should be free ideology. > Never! That's what GNU revolution is all about. Unless all software is 'free software', GPL software authors cannot survive. On the other hand, if all software is 'free software' everybody can survive. > (d) A common minimum subset that can be called "Linux" - so that > the commercial software authors can maintain their sanity. This > is being attempted by the LSB project. > In future software authors will be very much sane, developing 'free software' in a world where all software is 'free software'. > I sincerely hope, the saner heads will prevail in the end. Yes, that is definite! > Otherwise, you end up having to pay the "Linux penalty" - sort of > punishment for having chosen to run Linux - Winmodems Speaking about Winmodems, all these problems would not have existed if Winmodems followed concepts that make up the 'free software' concept. PS. Followups should go to LIG. -- Do you support 'free software'? Visit http://mvm.linuxbox.com Manoj Victor Mathew (GPG#: 3D96A9B9) Cochin, India. From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 31 10:52:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA30419 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:52:29 -0800 Received: from exocore.com (d2-ts2.iisc.ernet.in [202.141.1.226]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id KAA30415; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:52:21 -0800 Received: from localhost (achitnis@localhost) by exocore.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA23488; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:21:44 +0530 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:21:43 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis To: linux-india@lists.linux-india.org cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Subject: Happy New Year Message-ID: Organisation: Exocore Consulting (P) Limited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk All: I watched my Linux boxes roll over to the year 2000 without incident. A gratifying feeling. A Happy New Year/Decade/Century/Millennium/whatever to you all! Atul -------------------------------------------------------- Atul Chitnis | achitnis@exocore.com (PGP:6011BCB8) Exocore Consulting | http://www.exocore.com Bangalore, India | +91(80)3440397 Fax +91(80)3341137 -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Fri Dec 31 12:17:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id MAA30943 for linux-india-general-outgoing; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:17:16 -0800 Received: from ausmtp01.au.ibm.com (ausmtp01.au.ibm.COM [202.135.136.97]) by www.aunet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA30931; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:17:10 -0800 From: skhader@in.ibm.com Received: from f03n05e.au.ibm.com by ausmtp01.au.ibm.com (IBM AP 1.0) with ESMTP id HAA187626; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 07:17:00 +1100 Received: from d73mta05.au.ibm.com (f06n05s [9.185.166.67]) by f03n05e.au.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22488; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 07:17:07 +1100 Received: by d73mta05.au.ibm.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id CA256858.006F6CB0 ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 07:17:03 +1100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMIN@IBMAU To: linux-india@lists.linux-india.org cc: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 01:45:50 +0530 Subject: Appy Noo Ear Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org X-Loop: linux-india-general@lists.linux-india.org Precedence: bulk Hi Everybody, As Atul has already said, it feels great after seeing that time showing 2000 IST on muh machines. Anyway once again a Vewy Vewy Appy Noo Ear to 3v3ry Body here. Happy New Year Folks. Khader ---------------------------------- @}-------- Syed Khader Vali Debian 2.2.1 ( potato ) skhader@in.ibm.com Kernel 2.3.35 # 91-80-5262355 Extn:2527